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I've come full circle - slightly embarrassing

M

mgrenwic

Active Member
Well....I've been hanging here for quite sometime and I finally have all my funds, about $10k total that I want to spend. (thinking preamp/dac with a turntable)

Needless to say after I posted a question about the life span of hi end gear in the general section, it became clear I need to stick with Mac. The whole thread couldn't be better advertising for Mac with people posting about their gear being 20+, 30+ even 40+ years old! It seems the Mac stuff is a life long possession that you can build on and I like the sound of that.

I've moved away from the integrated's and I am looking at the preamp's with dacs, I guess I will just give up on my DSD aspirations, unless anyone here foresee's a new preamp with DSD that has analog?

Question, on the c48 and c50 and c2500 I noticed it has dual outputs. Is it possible to run 1 output with tube amplifiers and the other solid state? Also, what is the "processor" from and to on the c2500 for?

Thanks, this place is very helpful.

(PS. the reason this is taking so long is I have extreme OCD, but only when buying things I love...I expect art and passion, not problems)
 
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Wow, I'm so far out of my league here, both technically and financially, that I feel foolish commenting. But my first thought is that if you want something to keep for a long long time, I would not consider a pre with an onboard DAC. It seems to me that digital technology is still evolving pretty quickly, and I would not want to be tied to a $5000 preamplifier with an outdated DAC on board. I'd go for a separate DAC. But that's just my instinct. I'm commenting in part to follow the thread; I will be interested to learn what people with far more expertise think.
 
JLange2010 said:
Wow, I'm so far out of my league here, both technically and financially, that I feel foolish commenting. But my first thought is that if you want something to keep for a long long time, I would not consider a pre with an onboard DAC. It seems to me that digital technology is still evolving pretty quickly, and I would not want to be tied to a $5000 preamplifier with an outdated DAC on board. I'd go for a separate DAC. But that's just my instinct. I'm commenting in part to follow the thread; I will be interested to learn what people with far more expertise think.
Click to expand...

I don't subscribe to this theory at all.

The onboard DAC's on those three pre-amps are excellent sounding.....they will always sound great....
You will always be able to use the USB optical and coaxial inputs, those protocols have been around for a long time, so long that there are so many devices using them, that I doubt you'll ever struggle to find a way to deploy them.
So perhaps USB might change to something else? Well there will always be a way to convert to USB from whatever the next thing may be.....
It was like when computers suddenly had no serial ports any more, no problem, you go to the computer store and buy a USB to Serial converter.....I use a couple things with serial ports with no problem at all...
Yes technology marches on, and technically there may be some more advanced DAC's with more features will come along, but it in no way means because of this that the onboard DAC's will suddenly sound like crap......
The sound good now, and they will always sound good.....

If I was going to build my system again, I would however go a different route....
I may have still bought the C48 because its a great pre-amp, but think I would actually go for the D150, the D150 does DSD and DXD.....
It has a different chip in it, and observing here on the forum they are a lot more reliable than the onboard DAC's.....

As an onboard DAC user I can say I am very happy with the Audio quality of it, but they do tend to be a little quirky, a lot of us have problems with them, nothing very serious, but all the same it can get a bit annoying....its the USB input which can be a bit erratic.....
I have however gone for the last month without a glitch at all in my C48 DAC, but then just yesterday, I had to power cycle the C48 for it to show up....
There are a lot of threads here if you google search the forum on the DAC's...

If you want a tube pre-amp, a very popular combo is the C2300 + D100 (or D150)......

My dream combo is the SS C500 and D150......

If you want to check out the spec's and functions, you can just go the McInotsh Labs and download the user manuals and such......

But in summary, I recommend the C48 for a SS pre-amp, it is a lot of pre-amp for the money....
 
jamnesta said:
+1 Jlange; anything that transitions as much as digital should be in it's own box.... IMO
Click to expand...

Have you heard or used an onboard McIntosh DAC?

I still don't get that theory, sure digital transitions quickly, but as I was saying, how does that suddenly make your C48 DAC obsolete and unable to be used, or have some degradation in sound quality because there's something newer?
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the onboard DAC will become obsolete, in the sense that it can no longer be used. But why pay for something "built-in", unless perhaps the "single unit" price is significantly less than buying a comparable amp and separate DAC?

With a separate DAC, you can sell it if/when technology evolves, but still keep the preamp around which you've built your system. Sure, you can use an outboard DAC even with an integrated unit, but that seems like a redundant expense.

I'm sure that there are many points of view on this subject...just expressing my personal preference for keeping separate functions in separate boxes.
 
+3.

DAC & such is best kept outboard for the reasons Kev has stated.

The multiple preamplifier outputs most certainly can be used to drive whichever amplifiers you choose.

Tube, SS or both - it makes no difference as far as the preamplifier is concerned.
 
If I had 10k. Id try to do it like this. All used.

C2200 or C2300
MC275
Schiit DAC
VPI Scout

I think that spends your 10k. One of the items has to be lower cost so I chose the DAC. The schiit stuff is awesome. Just my 2 cents. I might be cutting it a little close to 10k.
 
kcbluesman said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the onboard DAC will become obsolete, in the sense that it can no longer be used. But why pay for something "built-in", unless perhaps the "single unit" price is significantly less than buying a comparable amp and separate DAC?

With a separate DAC, you can sell it if/when technology evolves, but still keep the preamp around which you've built your system. Sure, you can use an outboard DAC even with an integrated unit, but that seems like a redundant expense.

I'm sure that there are many points of view on this subject...just expressing my personal preference for keeping separate functions in separate boxes.
Click to expand...

Sure, I am not sure that the pre-amps would actually be that much cheaper without the DAC in them though.....To integrate a DAC into the pre-amp I think is a good idea....I think you get a lot of "bang for buck" that way...

However, I am about to consider a D150 for my system.....it won't happen quickly, so just as well I have the onboard DAC to use in the meantime....

The other thing to consider, is why would one feel the need to upgrade the DAC?
Is it to gain an extra feature?
Or is it to just "keep up with the latest" rather than " I must have the latest for it sound the best".....

It is a fairly complex set of considerations......But i can safely say I am sure glad the C48 has digital inputs for the time being until I get a D150...
 
I assume that people switch out gear - be it a DAC, speakers, turntable, cables, etc etc etc - for any variety of reasons. Generally, I do so with the intent of getting something that sounds better to me...and I suspect that this is the case for most others as well. So, my guess is that - at least in most cases - one would move to different DAC with the intent of getting an improvement in sound quality...same reason they would change any other component in their system.
 
Kevzep, no experience with onboard McIntosh DAC. I'm sure they sound wonderful. My concern lies with what the future will bring in the fast moving digital world as the poster mentioned longevity as an interest, not someone who is interested in continually upgrading gear. So my reply is theoretical, forward thinking and most importantly, just my opinion when it comes to a preamp wedded to a DAC.
 
I would look for a C-40 for the full flexibility you can no longer get with the new Mac pre-amps. I'd then add a D150. If you need a turntable, How about the new Prime from VPI, heck of a deal. You might have to wait for some one to make a mistake and sell their gently used D150, to stay under the budget, but that's OK, too. The processor loop allows you to add an equalizer, DBX expander, Auto Correlater (sp?) processor to the source you are dubbing or to the source you are listening to in order to rebalance or improve the sound to your liking.
 
I went from a C40 to the C48, and purely from an analogue performance perspective, the C48 is a very noticeable upgrade in sound quality.....
I wouldn't have the C40 back in the main system again......

The thing I miss about the C40 is the record output selector.....The C48 just has a generic "rec out"...which means you can't monitor something your recording through the system because the record out is just taken "pre volume" from whatever the input selected is.....
I find that slightly annoying....

C40 has no remote, something else to consider....
 
jamnesta said:
Kevzep, no experience with onboard McIntosh DAC. I'm sure they sound wonderful. My concern lies with what the future will bring in the fast moving digital world as the poster mentioned longevity as an interest, not someone who is interested in continually upgrading gear. So my reply is theoretical, forward thinking and most importantly, just my opinion when it comes to a preamp wedded to a DAC.
Click to expand...

Yeah its a complex situation and it depends on the individual at the end of the day....
It must have been a big call for McIntosh to decide to include a DAC in the current line of pre-amps, and its been a mixed reception I have to say....
 
kcbluesman said:
I assume that people switch out gear - be it a DAC, speakers, turntable, cables, etc etc etc - for any variety of reasons. Generally, I do so with the intent of getting something that sounds better to me...and I suspect that this is the case for most others as well. So, my guess is that - at least in most cases - one would move to different DAC with the intent of getting an improvement in sound quality...same reason they would change any other component in their system.
Click to expand...

Exactly, thats my reason for upgrading too, I am sure there are DAC's around now that are certainly more advanced, feature packed and have better performance on paper....
But how much better does the "new" DAC actually sound? Is it the expectation that because its newer and "better" that it will sound better?

Yeah, well, complex to say the least, I am happy to use the onboard DAC until I can afford the D150....
Why am I wanting a D150, well a friend if mine has just given me 2tb worth of DSD files, most every album I own and more, so I want a DAC which is DSD compatible.....
How much better will it sound? I don't know......But there you go.....
 
Stick to analog and there is no need for a DAC, internal or external..:yes: :thmbsp: :music:

Just sayin..............
 
I had a C2200 with a D100: superb sound.

I now have a C2500 fed with a custom Linux server digital coax: sounds much much better.

For sure for a signal path stand point, having the DAC "touching" the preamp is the best. Having it separated on it's own box/power supply than analog out -> interconnect to the preamp can not beat an inbox design.

Yes DAC technology improves, but this is why we have firmware release.
So IMO having the DAC/Preamp in one is a good solution.
If you like to mix and test, then go separate.

For me the DAC world is insane so I entrusted McIntosh with my choice: no regrets as usual.

So mgrenwic yes you can. I have a tube MC225 and a MC402 connected to the C2500 with great result.

I switch back and forth but I should say I am using the MC225 90% of the time... :yes:

I hope it helps.
Brice.
 
kevzep said:
Yeah its a complex situation and it depends on the individual at the end of the day....
It must have been a big call for McIntosh to decide to include a DAC in the current line of pre-amps, and its been a mixed reception I have to say....
Click to expand...

Absolute Sound April 2014, I'm a little behind in my reading, observed at CES that preamps with DACs built in is one of the most significant trends, so McIntosh is not alone
 
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