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I've come full circle - slightly embarrassing

twiiii said:
If you need a turntable, How about the new Prime from VPI, heck of a deal
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I almost bought one, but a VPI Scoutmaster signature came up for sale locally at less than half the price of a new Prime, so I bought that instead. Might consider the Prime again in a few years.
 
I'm in the camp that likes separate components and my recommendation is to go with the C2300 preamp and the D150 DSD DAC. For my particular situation (similar to Kev in that I have recently obtained a lot of DSD files) I would have been kicking myself if I'd have purchased the C2500.
 
kevzep said:
Exactly, thats my reason for upgrading too, I am sure there are DAC's around now that are certainly more advanced, feature packed and have better performance on paper....
But how much better does the "new" DAC actually sound? Is it the expectation that because its newer and "better" that it will sound better?

Yeah, well, complex to say the least, I am happy to use the onboard DAC until I can afford the D150....
Why am I wanting a D150, well a friend if mine has just given me 2tb worth of DSD files, most every album I own and more, so I want a DAC which is DSD compatible.....
How much better will it sound? I don't know......But there you go.....
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It will "probably" sound the same, but if you want the extra features....
 
Brice said:
I had a C2200 with a D100: superb sound.
I now have a C2500 fed with a custom Linux server digital coax: sounds much much better.

For sure for a signal path stand point, having the DAC "touching" the preamp is the best. Having it separated on it's own box/power supply than analog out -> interconnect to the preamp can not beat an inbox design.
Brice.
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Manufacturers often separate the noisy power supply from the signal circuitry in their "Reference" level gear. Digital has it's own issues with noise, so from a sound quality standpoint I don't believe this holds water. There are too many variables to draw these conclusions; different preamp, server etc, in my opinion.
 
JLange2010 said:
Wow, I'm so far out of my league here, both technically and financially, that I feel foolish commenting. But my first thought is that if you want something to keep for a long long time, I would not consider a pre with an onboard DAC. It seems to me that digital technology is still evolving pretty quickly, and I would not want to be tied to a $5000 preamplifier with an outdated DAC on board. I'd go for a separate DAC. But that's just my instinct. I'm commenting in part to follow the thread; I will be interested to learn what people with far more expertise think.
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I've been saying this for awhile. Why pay more for a unit with a DAC that will probably become dated in a couple of years. I have an MX130 that can run 2 zones simultaneously with different programming. It has so many inputs and outputs that I am unlikely to ever run out of capability. I can plug whatever DAC I want into it. It has a good MM phono board. I could use an Apple TV or other device to stream to it. I'm not suggesting that you get this same unit, there are newer ones with added capabilities. I'm just saying a good preamp is a good preamp, however old it is. Buy a good one and plug your favorite D to A hardware into it and relax. If some newer hardware comes on the scene and you want to upgrade, you will be able to without trading in your preamp.
 
mgrenwic said:
Well....I've been hanging here for quite sometime and I finally have all my funds, about $10k total that I want to spend. (thinking preamp/dac with a turntable)

Needless to say after I posted a question about the life span of hi end gear in the general section, it became clear I need to stick with Mac. The whole thread couldn't be better advertising for Mac with people posting about their gear being 20+, 30+ even 40+ years old! It seems the Mac stuff is a life long possession that you can build on and I like the sound of that.

I've moved away from the integrated's and I am looking at the preamp's with dacs, I guess I will just give up on my DSD aspirations, unless anyone here foresee's a new preamp with DSD that has analog?

Question, on the c48 and c50 and c2500 I noticed it has dual outputs. Is it possible to run 1 output with tube amplifiers and the other solid state? Also, what is the "processor" from and to on the c2500 for?

Thanks, this place is very helpful.

(PS. the reason this is taking so long is I have extreme OCD, but only when buying things I love...I expect art and passion, not problems)
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1. What format is your music primarily? Vinyl or Cd or other?

2. If you are primary Digital, perhaps your pre-amp should be the DAC. My thoughts have drifted to using a surround receiver or pre and an outboard phono stage of your choice. Pretty sure the Mac Pre-DAC supports 4 digital inputs but no analog inputs, a mistake. The Mac Dac msrp is $1000.00?

If you go surround pre-receiver, this means you can downmix 7.1, 5.1 etc to 2.1 or 2.0 giving you access to the best source available DTS Master.

3. Dual outputs, I assume you mean RCA and Balanced? Pretty sure the pre amps drive both outputs simultaneously. Some of the guys that own them can comment. So yes two amps, my C-32 supports up to 3 amps at the push of a button.

DACs are based on DSPs which are just specialized microprocessors for signals. Like a PC, the price performance curve moves quickly and any new $500.00 DAC is better than any 3 year old DAC regardless of price.

The one thing I would not do is purchase an analog pre amp with a built in DAC. The Analog pre will last a life time, the DAC is good for 3-5 years tops.
 
Bubo said:
The Analog pre will last a life time, the DAC is good for 3-5 years tops.
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See, this is what I don't understand:scratch2:......I understand we may want the latest and greatest, but I am sure the McIntosh pre-amps with built in DAC's are not going to fail, become incompatible, or fail to convert the files you play after 3-5 years....

The DAC will last as long as you feel you want to use it? Its never going to just stop working or sound bad because its "outdated"......
Of course the technology will march on, but remember you are limited by the files you are playing, my C48 DAC can do 192/32, how much better does it need to be than that?
How much better will it sound on a newer DAC playing the same res files?
Yeah sure, DSD and DXD are around, and they are hi end formats, but I can tell you from experience, that I or any other engineer I know actually cannot tell the difference between DSD and a 192/24 file......
I feel its more about having the "new chip", the latest "better sounding" DAC, when in fact the one that might be in the C48 will sound as good as any other newer DAC playing a 96/24 file or even 32/192.....

What is your 3-5 years tops based on? I have a benchmark DAC1 which is now about 4 years old, it sounds as good as the day I got it, and I actually have no intention of selling it, as it performs its function incredibly well....

As you know I work in the pro audio industry. We are using digital audio products that are over 10 years old, some are older, they have been superseded buy newer products, but I can't say just because a digital mixing console is newer with more features, that it actually sounds any better than its 10 year old counterpart.....

Of course its a free world and we all follow what we want and feel we believe, but I am not handing over $$$ every few years just to get the latest DAC when I doubt they actually sound any better, or that much better that its worth the $$ you'll lose by just tossing your old DAC.....

However as mentioned earlier, I am n the market for a D150 because I have a huge amount of DSD files I want to play, so I am upgrading for that extra feature......

Just a different perspective........
 
kev, your thinking is sound. The older DACs sound as good today as they did then. Have there been improvements? Yep.

Currently, I'm making use of my newest DAC (the one built into my Yamaha CD-S300RK) to play back 320 kbps files directly off of my iPod while I finish assembling my office system. Color me impressed. But that doesn't mean I won't use my old DACs. I've yet to hear one best the DAC in my Pioneer PD-T07 . . . and that's 20+ years old now . . .

Like yourself, the D150 has my attention . . .
 
mgrenwic said:
Needless to say after I posted a question about the life span of hi end gear in the general section, it became clear I need to stick with Mac. The whole thread couldn't be better advertising for Mac with people posting about their gear being 20+, 30+ even 40+ years old! It seems the Mac stuff is a life long possession that you can build on and I like the sound of that.
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You also have to remember that for whatever reason, Mac may be more common on AK than other equally reliable brands, so the replies in the other thread may be a skewed result. There's no reason AFAIK to think a Mac will outlast others in its price range, such as Audio Research, Pass Labs, Levinson, Krell, etc. (all of which I've owned). This isn't taking anything away from McIntosh, but you're limiting yourself quite a bit if you're considering only one maker based mainly on assumed longevity/reliability.
 
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kevzep said:
What is your 3-5 years tops based on? I have a benchmark DAC1 which is now about 4 years old, it sounds as good as the day I got it, and I actually have no intention of selling it, as it performs its function incredibly well....

.
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Different micro processors do different things, DSP have made and continue to make substantial price-performance and just plain performance improvements.

Doesn't mean a 5 year old DAC sucks or will catch fire, just that the newer ones are far more likely to do it better, faster, cheaper and support any new formats that have come down the road.

Again, my thoughts have turned to Digital = DTS Master 7.1 and the lesser formats downmixed to stereo.

A couple of weeks ago at a Klipsch get together we listened to a DTS Master of a Police concert downmixed to 2.0 through a surround receiver and ampd using two MC-30 mono blocks now 55 years old.

And if the MC 30s had an integral DAC what would it look like?

I actually walked through one of these computers, core memory was pretty cool, 3 stories tall. In it's day the most advanced computer in the world.

Corbis-IH129253.jpg
 
C2300
D100 or if you want DSD D150 both for DAC duty only.
MC501 mono blocks

You will be set for life and can drive any speaker that comes your way.
 
mgrenwic said:
Well....I've been hanging here for quite sometime and I finally have all my funds, about $10k total that I want to spend. (thinking preamp/dac with a turntable)

Needless to say after I posted a question about the life span of hi end gear in the general section, it became clear I need to stick with Mac. The whole thread couldn't be better advertising for Mac with people posting about their gear being 20+, 30+ even 40+ years old! It seems the Mac stuff is a life long possession that you can build on and I like the sound of that.

I've moved away from the integrated's and I am looking at the preamp's with dacs, I guess I will just give up on my DSD aspirations, unless anyone here foresee's a new preamp with DSD that has analog?

Question, on the c48 and c50 and c2500 I noticed it has dual outputs. Is it possible to run 1 output with tube amplifiers and the other solid state? Also, what is the "processor" from and to on the c2500 for?

Thanks, this place is very helpful.

(PS. the reason this is taking so long is I have extreme OCD, but only when buying things I love...I expect art and passion, not problems)
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Good decision - buy what you love.
 
Bubo said:
Different micro processors do different things, DSP have made and continue to make substantial price-performance and just plain performance improvements.

Doesn't mean a 5 year old DAC sucks or will catch fire, just that the newer ones are far more likely to do it better, faster, cheaper and support any new formats that have come down the road.

And if the MC 30s had an integral DAC what would it look like?
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Absolutely, I agree mostly with what your saying.....
Better, faster, cheaper......doesn't necessarily mean better sound which is what my point was....But....

Support new formats however, is a good reason to upgrade......and certainly this is why I'm upgrading, not because I think it will sound better......

Working in an industry like I do with largely digital audio products, I am not one to be affected by the emperors new clothes syndrome.....(as I call it)....


The MC30 DAC may indeed look like the pic of that awesome looking computer.....but I'd bet it would still work......especially if McIntosh built it.....
 
4-2-7 said:
C2300
D100 or if you want DSD D150 both for DAC duty only.
MC501 mono blocks

You will be set for life and can drive any speaker that comes your way.
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I'm drawn to the C500P, pair that with a D150 and you'd be well set for life....
 
I've owned some REALLY nice high end non-McIntosh gear over the years.

I don't own any of it anymore . . .
 
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