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JBL D-130s & Altec 511b horns...

HomerJSimpson said:
Man those look great, for something you worked on!!!! :finger:
mac, I'll just flat out say that they look great!

Zilch, I quite like the look of those Viscount cabs in your link. :yes:

I am looking forward to getting mine cleaned up a little. Wood's not my specialty by a long shot, but I'm sure to get a few good pointers from ejfud. They should end up looking great.

RC, if we tune those much higher I might as well just use my Minimus 7's, huh? :D
 
Redboy said:
RC, if we tune those much higher I might as well just use my Minimus 7's, huh? :D


Im shooting for NHT Super Zero's.

You still need to get me the existing port diameter wiseguy. I need to check something.

RC
 
RC, the port's 5 inches in diameter - I posted measurements in this thread but I should have called you, too.

:D
 
I'm getting ~2" (1.89", actually) port length (4.75" port inside diameter) to tune Redboy's D130s to 40 Hz in 4.5 (net internal volume) cuft boxes. That's WAY different from what he presently has there.

Cursor's at ~-10 dB, the nominal lower limit of "usable" bass response....
 

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Zilch said:
I'm getting ~2" (1.89", actually) port length (4.75" port inside diameter) to tune Redboy's D130s to 40 Hz in 4.5 (net internal volume) cuft boxes. That's WAY different from what he presently has there.

Cursor's at ~-10 dB, the nominal lower limit of "useable" bass response....


Hey Nate, I thought you were still out of town.

Im running the same thing, 4.5 cu-ft, 40 Hz and I'm coming up with a 4.75" ID at 3.03" or 4 cu-ft, 40 Hz and 4.75 ID at 3.84". What am I missing ?

One more thing not taken into consideration yet. Bracing and driver volume. Thats going to eat up some internal volume, Yes?

Regardless, that is as you say quite a bit different that what it is tuned to at the moment. Zilch, would a higher tuning help out with the D130 in your opinion? Not much higher, but higher non the less.

RC
 
doucanoe said:
Zilch, would a higher tuning help out with the D130 in your opinion? Not much higher, but higher none the less.
I'm not sure about the cabinet internal depth. The internal volume from the dimensions Redboy gave on the photo is somewhat larger than 4.5 cuft. I used 4.5 as the net internal volume. The driver mounted on the rear of the baffle consumes ~0.3 cuft.

Adding more bracing will presumably be traded off with more comprehensive fiberglass damping inside, which adds virtual volume. It's a wash.

As you suggest, BB6P recommends a slightly higher tuning, 44 Hz, for extended bass alignment of D130 in that size box. BB6P iterates to the maximally flat response. But tuning to 40 Hz you originally suggested gives a little more bass, and since Redboy's bass shy with this combination, I think it's a worthy tradeoff.

BB6P and other box modeling programs all give slightly different results, since they each use different algorithms for performing the calculations. The science is not exact, but most who build to BB6P prescriptions report good results. I always end up shortening the ducts a bit after measuring the actual tuned frequency of the finished box.

Both tunings are shown in this attachment. For the higher one (red,) the duct length is only 1", which is why I earlier suggested that his box with just the hole (no duct) was closer to the optimal tuning for D130.

You can see there, with the lower tuning, the usable bass is 0.58 Hz lower. The higher tuning has a bit better power handling, but Redboy said he's not particularly interested in cranking these, so I opted for slightly more low bass.

From the looks of it, Redboy's original tuning is dreadfully low; they won't handle hardly any power at all in that alignment due to D130's limited Xmax (cone excursion), as Jblmar cautioned in Post #19 here. If we knew the actual duct length, I could plot it for comparison....
 

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All very interesting reading, and all a little mysterious yet as I haven't had a chance to download any programs or do any reading. Yeah RC, I'm still out of town for a few more days so we'll have to wait for further measurements but I can tell you for sure that the current duct length is well over two inches - I'd guess more like six or seven!

Zilch, you're right - I'll sacrifice crankin'-loud volumes for bass extension...
 
Redboy said:
I'm still out of town for a few more days so we'll have to wait for further measurements but I can tell you for sure that the current duct length is well over two inches - I'd guess more like six or seven!
Confirm the actual inside dimensions too, please. Is 15.5" the baffle to baffle inside depth?
 
Zilch,
I also look forward to your endeavour.I'm sure you'll do a sterling job.:thmbsp:
 
I'm baaaaaaaaack!!

Some more measurements:

Inside diameter of port tube is 4 & 13/16ths (I don't know how exact you need this to be, but it would be much easier if we all just went metric already! :D )

The port tube is a whoppin' 8.25" long! That's the length of the tube itself, which is how I assume you measure that, not from the backside of the baffle.

Inside overall baffle to baffle depth is indeed 15.5" as measured earlier.

Wingspan of African swallow is 11.39".

I also determined conclusively that the front baffle is easily removable, made of 5/8" particleboard.

Zilch, I love reading those links of yours, but I'm just not gettin' it yet - we could really use one of those "bangin' head on wall" icons here! Can you give me some plain speak about my horns?
 
Redboy said:
Zilch, I love reading those links of yours, but I'm just not gettin' it yet - we could really use one of those "bangin' head on wall" icons here! Can you give me some plain speak about my horns?
Again, the measurement results are preliminary, and there's more to come, but whether it's 811 or 511 horns, at least with 806A drivers, there's no high-frequency (HF) response. It's rolling off at 4 kHz, down 10 dB at 10 kHz, and, for all intents and purposes, there's nobody home above that. In fairness, they don't sound bad, just "dull."

I've shown that I can "fix" it with compensation, and it sounds quite good doing that, but there's a 15 dB efficiency hit required to accomplish it reasonably. It'd take 20 dBs worth to make them play flat, which is not reasonable. Adding a tweeter would be an alternative, which I'm investigating as well. However, contrary to what may be common opinion or wisdom here, that requires more than just slapping one on. It's gotta be fully integrated to sound right, and that means careful selection of the appropriate tweeter and design of a crossover at the correct frequency and with the optimum slope(s) to make it happen. There's also phasing and time-alignment issues to address; I'll be showing some of that, too.

I earlier alluded to an "end run" solution, which I have tested but not posted. The final parts for that will be here Monday, so stay tuned.... :thmbsp:

Look again the first set of curves in post #68, above, in this context. It's all shown there.


[I'll run the curves on your LF, now, based upon your final measurements....]
 
Hey, that I could understand! Slowly but surely...

I'm not opposed to adding a tweeter to this setup, as the idea of losing that much efficiency would be a stinker, in my mind. I'm not locked in to the idea of a two-way by any means.

I'm sure nothing will happen around here before Monday. I await with bait breath.
 
Redboy said:
Hey, that I'm not locked in to the idea of a two-way by any means.
Well, I'm a two-way designer, basically, and if I can make it work, I will do that. I've heard it here, and I'm optimistic.

Did you order your crossover yet? Let's get these playing.... :yes:
 
Bass Box Design:

O.K., check me, now: you've got 24" x 22.5" x 15.5" = 8370 cuin / 1728 = 4.8438 cuft gross internal volume.

For D130, BB6P (Bass Box 6 Pro) suggests tuning to 43.97 Hz using a 0.751" long duct of 4.8125" diameter (black). Your net internal volume after deducting the port and rear-mounted driver is 4.565 cuft.

Doucanoe and I have suggested 40 Hz as alternative tuning. That'd be the JBL recommendation for D130, as well (red). The duct length grows to 1.919" and the net internal volume becomes 4.552 cuft due to increased duct displacement inside the box.

Your present 8.25" long duct has the box tuned to 28.97 Hz with a net volume of 4.48 cuft (cyan). That's not a bad looking curve with respect to bass extension, but you're out of cone displacement at just 5 watts input. The 40 Hz tuning will get you 6 dB more output at 40 Hz, 101 dB max acoustic power. It's that area between the cyan and red/black curves from 35 to 100 Hz you're not presently hearing that'll make them sound better in the bass region. Remove the duct in the other box to hear an approximation of the difference.
 

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Zilch said:
Did you order your crossover yet? Let's get these playing.... :yes:
I've done some more reading on crossovers and my brain's feeling a little scrambled.

I want to avoid multiple orders. If I pick these up from PE, what all do I need? I know I need the Eminence 800 hz crossovers. Also L-pads, right? I'm thinking 8ohm 50w mono like this.

I'm totally lost on Zobels... barely know what a Zobel is and don't know if I really need one (but I think I do)! If someone can help me put together a shopping list and point me to a schematic that shows how these should all be cobbled together, I've got a soldering iron and might be able to handle it from there!

Feeling fairly humbled, here. :tears:
 
Redboy said:
I've done some more reading on crossovers and my brain's feeling a little scrambled.
That looks like the right crossover for the job. Instructions for connecting will come with it, very likely. They don't give a lot of detail in the spec sheet, but go with it.

I'd move up to the 100W version of the L-Pad. You certainly don't need that much power-handling capacity, but the quality is significantly better for not much more money.

Zobel, you don't need right now. It's specific to each LF driver, and you're not certain you'll be keeping the D130s. Consider a Zobel a "refinement" at this point.

Which reminds me, I wouldn't cut those ducts for your initial evaluation. Finding new material the correct diameter for the existing hole in the cabinets may not be so easy later, so save them, and fabricate the new 2" ones from a suitable alternative material, as the duct length will change for a different driver and tuning.

Redboy said:
Feeling fairly humbled, here. :tears:
"Humbled" will happen when you first hear these things. UPS just delivered parts for the HF solution.... :thmbsp:
 
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