Also, I found that the volume of the system changes the room acoustic's interactions. Sometimes slightly, sometimes more.
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JBL Dynamics Project - L200 box, 2216ND/Smith Horn/2405 Slots
- Thread starter hjames
- Start date
Macaroonie
Super Member
First off I think you need to go on the hunt for that harshness or whatever it is. If it's a diaphragm rubbing or whatever it would be a good idea to track itdown.
One speaker at a time , not too loud , nice slow sweep and listen carefully.
Actually I would disconnect the bass driver , there's no reason to suspect issues there.
Anyway first thing to do is find out if the harshness is repeatable then home in on it at whatever particular frequency it occurs.
Then if it is real you can investigate the possible cause or causes.
BTW I'v done this myself but my mate Eugene at QC in Tannoy who used to be near Glasgow did the business for me on lots of lovely B and K measurement kit. Schoeps microphone.
Root cause one loose VC winding not readily visible to the naked eye.
Could easily be a cracked VC former.
One speaker at a time , not too loud , nice slow sweep and listen carefully.
Actually I would disconnect the bass driver , there's no reason to suspect issues there.
Anyway first thing to do is find out if the harshness is repeatable then home in on it at whatever particular frequency it occurs.
Then if it is real you can investigate the possible cause or causes.
BTW I'v done this myself but my mate Eugene at QC in Tannoy who used to be near Glasgow did the business for me on lots of lovely B and K measurement kit. Schoeps microphone.
Root cause one loose VC winding not readily visible to the naked eye.
Could easily be a cracked VC former.
Schoeps are great mics. Were they shotguns?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Macaroonie
Super Member
No need for that in that application. It's all done quietly in anechoic circumstances.
Sadly Tannoy wound up in Glasgow. Now owned by Uli B and copy catted in China.
Sadly Tannoy wound up in Glasgow. Now owned by Uli B and copy catted in China.
I would be more comfortable with measuring one speaker, pulled away from adjacent pots and other reflections, could even pull it outside for a couple of quick sweeps to isolate the speaker from reflections. Might not be practical.
I do plan to test them one by one as a single speaker, but at 150 lbs or so each, and I haven't put wheels under them yet,
I'm not going to move them outside. (they were empty cabinets when we moved them into the house back in Nov.)
Again, the 4 conductor mic cable arrives Tuesday, so other than some initial tests to see if I have the gear needed to do better testing,
the sound checks won't resume until Weds probably ...
Oh, and - the holidays are getting closer (11 days and counting!), and we've got other stuff on our agenda as well!
I'm not going to move them outside. (they were empty cabinets when we moved them into the house back in Nov.)
Again, the 4 conductor mic cable arrives Tuesday, so other than some initial tests to see if I have the gear needed to do better testing,
the sound checks won't resume until Weds probably ...
Oh, and - the holidays are getting closer (11 days and counting!), and we've got other stuff on our agenda as well!
To turn a phrase, "What happens outside, stays outside."
While of interest, I think it is far more important to consider the room in all speaker/crossover design because that's where the speakers are going to be playing/interacting. Obviously manufacturers can't do this because they have no idea what environment their speakers will be playing in.
While of interest, I think it is far more important to consider the room in all speaker/crossover design because that's where the speakers are going to be playing/interacting. Obviously manufacturers can't do this because they have no idea what environment their speakers will be playing in.
I agree Todd.
I think that it is however difficult to remove room reflections, and there is nothing you can do with a 180* out-of-phase reflection (cancellation) in a crossover to correct it, always better to start with a base-line measurement of the speaker itself (IMO of course).
As mentioned- there's a limit of what crossover tweaking can do, in terms of "taming the environment".
I've never had very good luck doing that, when it resulted in drastic response alterations in the crossover. Usually too many problems with phase and time aberrations, caused by the response contouring itself. In this case- it's usually better to try and optimize the speaker location (sometimes moving just a few inches one direction or the other, can make a BIG differences in what room modes are being "activated" by the speaker), and address problems in the room itself (sometimes, just moving furniture or rugs or whatnot a bit, can make big improvements), before trying to alter the speaker to 'bandaid" problems with the space itself...
That said- a speaker with mild adjustments, can be a god-send in many cases. I always have admired the ability of Von Schweikert speakers to be somewhat tailored to the room- adjustments to the tweeter and woofer levels, a bit of phase adjustment on the the bass drivers in the large ones, and such. It can allow the speaker to be placed in a location for best soundstaging and imaging- and then tweak the tonal balance to suit, as opposed to be limited to positions where a speaker, without adjustments, has good tonal balance- which may NOT correlate with the best perceived sonic spatial characteristics...
Regards,
Gordon.
I've never had very good luck doing that, when it resulted in drastic response alterations in the crossover. Usually too many problems with phase and time aberrations, caused by the response contouring itself. In this case- it's usually better to try and optimize the speaker location (sometimes moving just a few inches one direction or the other, can make a BIG differences in what room modes are being "activated" by the speaker), and address problems in the room itself (sometimes, just moving furniture or rugs or whatnot a bit, can make big improvements), before trying to alter the speaker to 'bandaid" problems with the space itself...
That said- a speaker with mild adjustments, can be a god-send in many cases. I always have admired the ability of Von Schweikert speakers to be somewhat tailored to the room- adjustments to the tweeter and woofer levels, a bit of phase adjustment on the the bass drivers in the large ones, and such. It can allow the speaker to be placed in a location for best soundstaging and imaging- and then tweak the tonal balance to suit, as opposed to be limited to positions where a speaker, without adjustments, has good tonal balance- which may NOT correlate with the best perceived sonic spatial characteristics...
Regards,
Gordon.
Been busy through the holidays and then I've had other projects gathering my attention, but I decided it was time to put wheels under the speakers
to make it easier to move them around (so I can pull out the Von Schweikert VR-4s currently in the storeroom behind them, to demo and sell them).
I checked prices on wheels/casters and dollies at Home Depot, then bought a pair of wheeled dollies at the closest Harbor Freight (for half the price!).
Today's plan is to cut them down and tie them to the bottoms just inside the factory plinths, so I had to disconnect the stacked Mid & HighF drivers,
the crossover, and the granite topper to lay them face down for work.
While I had them laid down I put a bead of silicon RTV on the rear doghouse added by the previous owner to allow use of the JBL Longhorns used in the L300s.
Since I am not using the internal horns, I don't need the access. The cabinet is simply a pretty ported box housing the new 2216ND woofer, nothing more - so
sealing the cabinet will improve bass response.
I'll do just the one speaker and make sure its stable - if its tippy (like the Heathkits were), I'll remove it and come up with another approach.
One done, and - not tippy! I just knocked down the second dolly and removed the wheels.
Ready to dress the crosspiece before pulling down the second speaker and screwing it on.
Just for reference. This is what the Dollys originally look like at Harbour Freight.
I bought 2 so that's $34 for 8 beefy wheels on ball-bearing swivels!
I deconstructed 2 for the wheels under my cabinets. Stripped the carpet (too many staples!),
pulled the wheels and the crosspieces apart, then screwed the wheeled planks to the bottom of the cabinet.
to make it easier to move them around (so I can pull out the Von Schweikert VR-4s currently in the storeroom behind them, to demo and sell them).
I checked prices on wheels/casters and dollies at Home Depot, then bought a pair of wheeled dollies at the closest Harbor Freight (for half the price!).
Today's plan is to cut them down and tie them to the bottoms just inside the factory plinths, so I had to disconnect the stacked Mid & HighF drivers,
the crossover, and the granite topper to lay them face down for work.
While I had them laid down I put a bead of silicon RTV on the rear doghouse added by the previous owner to allow use of the JBL Longhorns used in the L300s.
Since I am not using the internal horns, I don't need the access. The cabinet is simply a pretty ported box housing the new 2216ND woofer, nothing more - so
sealing the cabinet will improve bass response.
I'll do just the one speaker and make sure its stable - if its tippy (like the Heathkits were), I'll remove it and come up with another approach.
One done, and - not tippy! I just knocked down the second dolly and removed the wheels.
Ready to dress the crosspiece before pulling down the second speaker and screwing it on.
Just for reference. This is what the Dollys originally look like at Harbour Freight.
I bought 2 so that's $34 for 8 beefy wheels on ball-bearing swivels!
I deconstructed 2 for the wheels under my cabinets. Stripped the carpet (too many staples!),
pulled the wheels and the crosspieces apart, then screwed the wheeled planks to the bottom of the cabinet.
The CD library trays are my hard backups. Got them all ripped lossless, and available via Wifi to the WiimPro, Acurus gear and the speakers.
Got the second speaker done - a good day's work ...
Lifted each cabinet 2 inches in height, but still well pointed well at the armchairs.
After I took this picture, I moved the stack of books off the coffee table (right). Just made sense to get that blockage out.
BMWCCA
Addicted Member
Harbor Freight dollies are frequently put on-sale as loss-leaders and I've owned them for years. Great deals.
I"m currently contemplating some sort of integrated casters for my 250ti but they have no plinth so I'll have to create a "crate" for them to sit in to make them easier to move without trashing the veneer around their "skirt" and also hiding the casters as much as possible and minimizing how much this changes the height of these already tall-enough speakers.
I"m currently contemplating some sort of integrated casters for my 250ti but they have no plinth so I'll have to create a "crate" for them to sit in to make them easier to move without trashing the veneer around their "skirt" and also hiding the casters as much as possible and minimizing how much this changes the height of these already tall-enough speakers.
I don't have wheels on my B460 18" sub in the multimedia system - it's pretty much gonna live in the corner downstairs where I put it!
moray james
Super Member
Hello Heather I am familiar with the sound and dispersion of the 077/2405 tweeter, so I would be interested to learn what it was about the 2405 in this set up that you did not like? What was it about them that made you reconsider using them? Thank you.
When I started this project I already owned the great Heil drivers - and didn't have any 2405s, so it was only natural to give the Heils
a chance while they were on hand. I'd heard great feedback from folks who swapped the 2216ND drivers into their L200 3ways,
so easy to try them as woofers instead of the 2234s I had last time. Plus 2234s are harder to come by than new woofers from JBL.
I preferred the sound of the wooden Smith horns last time instead of the long exponential horns used with 2420/2425 drivers in the L300,
so when I mentioned them, and an AKer offered to sell me their pair, made by the same guy whole my earlier pair, well, that was an easy choice!
So I collected pieces over 18 months or so - and was finally found clean L200 cabinets in October from a friend travelling down from upstate NY.
But once I had the cabinets assembled n October, I felt the Great Heils didn't initially play well, with the 2216NDs and smith horns,
I'm sure there were strategies to sorting them out with the other drivers, but I already had the L300 clone crossovers, and my memory of the
3 JBL driver arrangement from my 2010 build encouraged me to get a pair of 2405s to try instead. Simpler than scratch building something new.
Once I had the 2405 slots I could hear they do play better with the crossover and woofers/mids I already had than the Heils did. The right choice.
And - it was easy enough to sell off the Heils to partially pay for the 2405 slots.
Does that help?
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moray james
Super Member
yes Heather it clears things up for me. Thank you for taking the time to explain what happened. Tell me though how much do you love the 2216ND's?