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Kef 104/2 Reference in the house!

RSPM mkIV's are great speakers. they are SPL-limited due to the fragile super-tweeter and limited excursion on the bass driver, but within their capabilities, they do a lot of things right. new caps make a big difference but it's a difficult job, and they do sound pretty nice stock.

Actually it wasnt too bad of a job. Took me about 4 hours total, but it was a walk in the park in comparison to the TLS 80s I had. They sound absolutely incredible though!

SimplySound, yeah you might be right. Imagine that, two legendary Brit speakers in the house. Oh boy. SimplySound, my wife might just hate you a little now :D

In other news I have the Kube now. More to come :)
 
Great to hear you got the KUBE!!! If for no other reason than to compare!!! (And have all of the bits) :thmbsp:

It definitely made an improvement.. I was a little worried because so many people talked about it diminishing the midrange and highs, but I don't detect that at all.

What a great addition. When I have given it some serious listening time I'll post more of my thoughts, but definitely am very happy I got it.
 
It definitely made an improvement.. I was a little worried because so many people talked about it diminishing the midrange and highs, but I don't detect that at all.

What a great addition. When I have given it some serious listening time I'll post more of my thoughts, but definitely am very happy I got it.

Yanno... I read the same comments about the 107 KUBE and I'm with you, I really don't hear that much of a veil in the upper-mids and highs and the Bass is just soooo much more extended.

No, I'd never listen to my KEF's without the KUBE!
 
Yanno... I read the same comments about the 107 KUBE and I'm with you, I really don't hear that much of a veil in the upper-mids and highs and the Bass is just soooo much more extended.

No, I'd never listen to my KEF's without the KUBE!

Oh I completely agree. The Kube is a very welcome addition - I love the way it transforms the speakers!

See you've got the 50's and the 107's, I've got the 104/2's and the RSPM's. All we gotta do is get together!! Haha what a party THAT would be, huh? :banana:

On that note, I saw an advertisement for the 107's.. $5750 MSRP !!! Unbelievable price for that time!
 
All right guys, I think it's time to fill you in on what I've been experiencing with these speakers so far.

To start off, I'm not listening to these in exactly ideal conditions. The room is too short for them - in the manual they want 10 feet. Well, I'm giving them half of that. I imagine this means their tonal balance is a little off. However, I listen to all of my gear in this room so for a frame of reference I think it works okay, just not the best for these particular speakers.

Let's talk about their design. These are a pretty unique speaker after all, I'm not exactly sure how the bass cavity works, but it's definitely a neat approach to bass reproduction. I really like the midrange and tweeters being extended off of the front - smart idea! I imagine they did it for some of the same reasons they did that curved front on the LS50's.

Next, they're lookers. You may not be able to see it, but the veneers are matching. Very cool. The backs of the speakers are also veneered, which is a really nice touch. Overall they spent a lot of money on these speakers, they didn't cut corners. I imagine that's why they put the Reference name on this model. :)

Before I begin talking about the sound, keep in mind these are preliminary thoughts. I've had a total of 5 hours with them so far, which gives me a decent idea but not a complete idea. Not to mention they are in their original state and so there's a possibility they are not sounding as they did when new - but regardless, the idea is there.

Now on to the way these sound. Imagine yourself walking into a really classy restaurant, everything is clean, lots of class around, people are dressed up fancy, acting polite and professional, and its generally a mature, older crowd. These speakers are like that - they're classy, mature, refined, smooth, and stylish. I think these speakers really typify what british loudspeakers are all about. I remember when I visited Europe the biggest thing you see over there is that the culture is vastly different. They've been around a lot longer than America has, so they've got quite a bit of history. A thousand years over there is like a hundred years for us. I think these speakers and their sound really reflect the way their culture is over there.

I think one thing I have noticed however is that the sound is a bit colored. It's natural, but they color the sound I think to appeal to a broader audience. It's very enjoyable, and not in any way takes away from the experience, but if complete accuracy is your thing I don't think these speakers would fit the bill. However if you want something that is fairly accurate, but at the same time a bit forgiving and gives you an enjoyable way to listen to music with a lot of class and quality, these are most definitely an excellent choice.

The pacing and rhythm of these speakers I find is fairly unique. I'm not sure what it is but I imagine it has something to do with the way the Kef drivers were redesigned. Although they call them the B200, B110 and T33, these are new versions of these drivers. I don't know exactly what was done with them, but they have a different way of presenting sound but with a similar characteristic to their elders. I consider it quite relaxing, some consider it slow, it may be on the slow side but it's not a bad thing. It's actually rather welcome, it complements the way the entire speaker sounds in my opinion.

How's the imaging? I think the imaging is spectacular. I have them placed now in the sweet spot in my room, tilted upwards, using the floor spikes instead of the rubber feet. Great depth and tons of air around instruments. Placement is very easy, and the speakers disappear just like they should. However, I know I am not getting the full benefits here, and I imagine there is something being left to be desired in this small room. So, I will keep this portion short.

Now let's talk about the Kube a little bit since I have that too.

Before the Kube, you could really hear a diminished level of bass. A whole octave from the bottom register is missing, and it causes it to sound a bit light. Midbass is most excellent however - anything punchy, such as rock, will have no trouble coming through in that regard. Same with Jazz, but you will notice it with a Cello for example, that bottom end smooth bass sound just isn't all there. This really isn't a bad thing - I think unless you really do require that low bass extension, the stock 55hz is just fine.

However, if you are like me and you prefer the deep sound of a true full range speaker, then the Kube, at least in my experience, is a very welcome change. Many people spoke about how it would cut up the mids and highs, making it sound worse overall. I disagree. While I do think it changes the way the speaker presents itself entirely, I think this change is very welcome. Bass is what makes a lot of music exciting. Bass is groovy, man! Not to mention it makes a speaker sound bigger than it actually is, kind of like over-stuffing a box or over-padding a room. The really cool part is just how natural and smooth the bass actually sounds. It does not get boomy, it is well controlled and pretty darn musical. Throw on Patricia Barber - Inch Worm, you will see what I am talking about! That beginning with the bass, you will really feel the presence of the instrument.

As far as the midrange and highs go, I did notice a slight difference, but it is not enough to make me think they have worsened. If anything, they're a bit more prominent and it fits the increased bass extension! It was not a sound quality degrade, it was a presentation change. Depending on what you listen to, this can make an incredible difference overall.

Now since some of you asked for a comparison to the IMF's, I have yet to hook the IMF's back up (they are big beasts) but, based on my time spent with the Kef's and my very extensive time listening to the IMF's, the major differences are firstly the bass reproduction is far greater on the IMF's. That is to be expected. Even with the Kube, the Kef's get closer but the IMF's take the cake. Next, the IMF's have more detail going on in the mids and highs. Now, this could partially be because the T33 tweeters are degrading from the goopy ferro-fluid, so I want to mention that there is a good possibility the Kef's are running sub-par right now and this can account for some of these differences. However, the difference isn't subtle, it's fairly obvious. Next, the sonic characters are a bit different. I find the 104/2 appeals to a different crowd than the IMF RSPM's do. They were built for different audiences in my opinion and sound different because of that. The IMF RSPM's are built to be the best transmission line speaker using all of the then known techniques and engineering that IMF was capable of, whereas the 104/2 isn't exactly the same statement piece from Kef. While the 104/2 does come close in some areas to the IMF's, they are both different beasts in that regard, and this in my opinion is what places the IMF RSPM above the 104/2. Not only that, the 104/2 was a brand new direction for Kef, whereas the RSPM was a continuation of what made IMF so good, and is considered by many to be the cream of the crop for IMF speakers.

So that is where I am sitting right now with my thoughts. I plan to continue to listen to them, they aren't moving from their current positions for a while. As I discover new things about these speakers, I will be sure to post my impressions. So far though, I am very much enjoying the Kef's. Great speakers!
 
I do like the styling of the 104/2s and they do sound wonderful for a British speaker:), perhaps one of the earliest designs I've heard presenting a slightly forward sound quality reminicent of more "modern" designs.
Did I mention their strikingly good looks?:)
 
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Totally agree with your observations. My sister has a pair that I have done a lot of listening to. She recently redecorated and put the KEFs in storage and told me I could have them if I wanted them. My only problem is she's in California and I'm in Alabama. I'll have to break down and pay for shipping one of these days.
 
Nice write up Canucker!!!!

Yanno, we all have ways of describing speakers.... PRAT, Dynamic, Forward are terms that get thrown around a lot... I never know sometimes how people are using terms like this (heck, I'm sometimes not even sure how I'm using these terms).

I had always thought, after reading quite a bit about these speakers, that they were "Dynamic" (i.e., lots of PRAT) and were a bit brighter (forward?) in the mid and lower-highs than the traditional "KEF Sound". I was intrigued that you found them "Slower", which makes some sense in that I find my 107's to have tons of PRAT and maybe they slowed down the 104 to smooth out the Mids given the design.

Sounds like they are a touch "forward" and that would make sense with the D'Appolito Design.

Many have commented that this was KEF's response to the developing West Coast Sound and it was more of an "American Hybrid" (i.e. still maintaining that beautiful KEF sound) compared to the 105/107.

Nice Scroe!!! :thmbsp: ...and thanks for the great write-up/comparison!
 
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To me, the KEF sound, based on my familiarity with these and the 107 is that forward means, the music is placed in front of the speakers. In one case the violin was floating about midway between me and the speakers. It's very impressive, maybe holographic.

Most of the time, for me, forward means a bit shouty, which the KEFs are not.
 
Nice write up Canucker!!!!

Yanno, we all have ways of describing speakers.... PRAT, Dynamic, Forward are terms that get thrown around a lot... I never know sometimes how people are using terms like this (heck, I'm sometimes not even sure how I'm using these terms).

I had always thought, after reading quite a bit about these speakers, that they were "Dynamic" (i.e., lots of PRAT) and were a bit brighter (forward?) in the mid and lower-highs than the traditional "KEF Sound". I was intrigued that you found them "Slower", which makes some sense in that I find my 107's to have tons of PRAT and maybe they slowed down the 104 to smooth out the Mids given the design.

Sounds like they are a touch "forward" and that would make sense with the D'Appolito Design.

Many have commented that this was KEF's response to the developing West Coast Sound and it was more of an "American Hybrid" (i.e. still maintaining that beautiful KEF sound) compared to the 105/107.

Nice Scroe!!! :thmbsp: ...and thanks for the great write-up/comparison!

Thanks!

If I had to give a title to the way the speakers sound, I would call it "Neo-British" :) It's an interesting take on the east coast sound - I agree, it's a hybrid of sorts. I think that's part of the reason why they will be perfect for the wife. She doesn't need something that is terribly revealing and detailed, she needs something that provides that high level of detail yet makes whatever music she wants enjoyable. These Kef's are perfect for that.
 
Totally agree with your observations. My sister has a pair that I have done a lot of listening to. She recently redecorated and put the KEFs in storage and told me I could have them if I wanted them. My only problem is she's in California and I'm in Alabama. I'll have to break down and pay for shipping one of these days.

Heh, where in California did you say your sister lived? :scratch2: We in Cali could help relieve her of those KEF's and open up some storage for her. Just doing our civic duty.

BTW, roll Tide! Exceptional performance.
 
Congrats on finding yourself a nice pair of 104/2's. I ran through much the KEF Reference line in the late 80's through the early 90's with the 104/2 being my main speaker around 1990. It was by far my favorite.

As you probably already know, these speakers were a coupled cavity LF design. Most LF issues found with them is caused by the deterioration of the surround on the lower driver. You can check it's condition by shining a flashlight into the front port to see if it needs to be replaced. I never had to replace mine because of it's age but did end up tearing into a 105 from the same line many years later. It was a little bit of horsing around ( I needed to replace uni-Q tweeters in those) but not that bad. The 104/2 would need to accessed in the same way.

I ran mine with and without the Kube. From my experience, the Reference 103 benefited much more from using the Kube than the 104/2. I eventually settled on running them without.

RC
 
I've also heard good things about the 105/3, but some poo-poo the early Uni-Q. Interesting that you said that you had to repair them!

I'd love to hear a pair of those, but they seem really kinda rare. Oh no, not another Quest! :no:
 
I've also heard good things about the 105/3, but some poo-poo the early Uni-Q. Interesting that you said that you had to repair them!

I'd love to hear a pair of those, but they seem really kinda rare. Oh no, not another Quest! :no:

According to a review I read they are a true sleeper in Kef land. Apparently they were made in a time of economic downturn so not a whole lot were sold or made - making them a challenge to source.

I'd certainly like to hear a pair though!
 
All right guys, I think it's time to fill you in on what I've been experiencing with these speakers so far.

To start off, I'm not listening to these in exactly ideal conditions. The room is too short for them - in the manual they want 10 feet. Well, I'm giving them half of that. I imagine this means their tonal balance is a little off. However, I listen to all of my gear in this room so for a frame of reference I think it works okay, just not the best for these particular speakers.

Let's talk about their design. These are a pretty unique speaker after all, I'm not exactly sure how the bass cavity works, but it's definitely a neat approach to bass reproduction. I really like the midrange and tweeters being extended off of the front - smart idea! I imagine they did it for some of the same reasons they did that curved front on the LS50's.

Next, they're lookers. You may not be able to see it, but the veneers are matching. Very cool. The backs of the speakers are also veneered, which is a really nice touch. Overall they spent a lot of money on these speakers, they didn't cut corners. I imagine that's why they put the Reference name on this model. :)

Before I begin talking about the sound, keep in mind these are preliminary thoughts. I've had a total of 5 hours with them so far, which gives me a decent idea but not a complete idea. Not to mention they are in their original state and so there's a possibility they are not sounding as they did when new - but regardless, the idea is there.

Now on to the way these sound. Imagine yourself walking into a really classy restaurant, everything is clean, lots of class around, people are dressed up fancy, acting polite and professional, and its generally a mature, older crowd. These speakers are like that - they're classy, mature, refined, smooth, and stylish. I think these speakers really typify what british loudspeakers are all about. I remember when I visited Europe the biggest thing you see over there is that the culture is vastly different. They've been around a lot longer than America has, so they've got quite a bit of history. A thousand years over there is like a hundred years for us. I think these speakers and their sound really reflect the way their culture is over there.

I think one thing I have noticed however is that the sound is a bit colored. It's natural, but they color the sound I think to appeal to a broader audience. It's very enjoyable, and not in any way takes away from the experience, but if complete accuracy is your thing I don't think these speakers would fit the bill. However if you want something that is fairly accurate, but at the same time a bit forgiving and gives you an enjoyable way to listen to music with a lot of class and quality, these are most definitely an excellent choice.

The pacing and rhythm of these speakers I find is fairly unique. I'm not sure what it is but I imagine it has something to do with the way the Kef drivers were redesigned. Although they call them the B200, B110 and T33, these are new versions of these drivers. I don't know exactly what was done with them, but they have a different way of presenting sound but with a similar characteristic to their elders. I consider it quite relaxing, some consider it slow, it may be on the slow side but it's not a bad thing. It's actually rather welcome, it complements the way the entire speaker sounds in my opinion.

How's the imaging? I think the imaging is spectacular. I have them placed now in the sweet spot in my room, tilted upwards, using the floor spikes instead of the rubber feet. Great depth and tons of air around instruments. Placement is very easy, and the speakers disappear just like they should. However, I know I am not getting the full benefits here, and I imagine there is something being left to be desired in this small room. So, I will keep this portion short.

Now let's talk about the Kube a little bit since I have that too.

Before the Kube, you could really hear a diminished level of bass. A whole octave from the bottom register is missing, and it causes it to sound a bit light. Midbass is most excellent however - anything punchy, such as rock, will have no trouble coming through in that regard. Same with Jazz, but you will notice it with a Cello for example, that bottom end smooth bass sound just isn't all there. This really isn't a bad thing - I think unless you really do require that low bass extension, the stock 55hz is just fine.

However, if you are like me and you prefer the deep sound of a true full range speaker, then the Kube, at least in my experience, is a very welcome change. Many people spoke about how it would cut up the mids and highs, making it sound worse overall. I disagree. While I do think it changes the way the speaker presents itself entirely, I think this change is very welcome. Bass is what makes a lot of music exciting. Bass is groovy, man! Not to mention it makes a speaker sound bigger than it actually is, kind of like over-stuffing a box or over-padding a room. The really cool part is just how natural and smooth the bass actually sounds. It does not get boomy, it is well controlled and pretty darn musical. Throw on Patricia Barber - Inch Worm, you will see what I am talking about! That beginning with the bass, you will really feel the presence of the instrument.

As far as the midrange and highs go, I did notice a slight difference, but it is not enough to make me think they have worsened. If anything, they're a bit more prominent and it fits the increased bass extension! It was not a sound quality degrade, it was a presentation change. Depending on what you listen to, this can make an incredible difference overall.

Now since some of you asked for a comparison to the IMF's, I have yet to hook the IMF's back up (they are big beasts) but, based on my time spent with the Kef's and my very extensive time listening to the IMF's, the major differences are firstly the bass reproduction is far greater on the IMF's. That is to be expected. Even with the Kube, the Kef's get closer but the IMF's take the cake. Next, the IMF's have more detail going on in the mids and highs. Now, this could partially be because the T33 tweeters are degrading from the goopy ferro-fluid, so I want to mention that there is a good possibility the Kef's are running sub-par right now and this can account for some of these differences. However, the difference isn't subtle, it's fairly obvious. Next, the sonic characters are a bit different. I find the 104/2 appeals to a different crowd than the IMF RSPM's do. They were built for different audiences in my opinion and sound different because of that. The IMF RSPM's are built to be the best transmission line speaker using all of the then known techniques and engineering that IMF was capable of, whereas the 104/2 isn't exactly the same statement piece from Kef. While the 104/2 does come close in some areas to the IMF's, they are both different beasts in that regard, and this in my opinion is what places the IMF RSPM above the 104/2. Not only that, the 104/2 was a brand new direction for Kef, whereas the RSPM was a continuation of what made IMF so good, and is considered by many to be the cream of the crop for IMF speakers.

So that is where I am sitting right now with my thoughts. I plan to continue to listen to them, they aren't moving from their current positions for a while. As I discover new things about these speakers, I will be sure to post my impressions. So far though, I am very much enjoying the Kef's. Great speakers!

Sounds like you have a good grasp of what the 104.2 is all about. Pre Kube they were a very exciting, forward, fun speaker. They got a lot of people to spend relatively big money on a system who otherwise never would have. Often it was people who were not really into audio as a hobby but just had to have a pair of 104.2 with one of those new fangled CD players because it was just so much FUN! Those who were already into audio often found them too bright, forward, lacking neutrality, having lots of punch but real low bass and prefered the other Kef models.

Once a special add on, optional Kube was made available the so equipped 104.2 acheived a balance much closer to the rest of the line. The Kube did not take away any mids or highs but since the bass was more prominent the balance was different. Inevitably since the signal was running through extra circuits and wires there was some loss of transparency. Using good cables was important. The choice to Kube or not to Kube got down to personal preference as they are very different beasts with and without.
 
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Sounds like you have a good grasp of what the 104.2 is all about. Pre Kube they were a very exciting, forward, fun speaker. They got a lot of people to spend relatively big money on a system who otherwise never would have. Often it was people who were not really into audio as a hobby but just had to have a pair of 104.2 with one of those new fangled CD players because it was just so much FUN! Those who were already into audio often found them too bright, forward, lacking neutrality, having lots of punch but real low bass and prefered the other Kef models.

Once a special add on, optional Kube was made available the so equipped 104.2 acheived a balance much closer to the rest of the line. The Kube did not take away any mids or highs but since the bass was more prominent the balance was different. Inevitably since the signal was running through extra circuits and wires there was some loss of transparency. Using good cables was important. The choice to Kube or not to Kube got down to personal prefernce as they are very different beasts with and without.

I was reading your posts in another thread on this speaker from a couple years ago, and everything you say rings well with what I have been experiencing. In fact, on the box of the Kube I bought, it says it came from Smyth Sound which I know you are familiar with :)

I keep listening to these and just thinking about how great they are. So enjoyable. I couldn't have thought of a better speaker for the wife. She loves music, but she isn't into the audio hobby like I am - they are like a perfect gateway between the audiophile world and the music lover. I know she's going to enjoy these for many, many years.
 
And I forgot to mention you are also right about the build quality and styling: very handsome and unique looking speaker in person. Pictures do not begin to do them justice.
 
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