• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

KEF 104/2 restoration and crossover recap

nj pheonix said:
I have a question. Do people usually put these on risers to get the tweeter up to ear level?
Click to expand...

No, I don't think so. In the manual they state that 10 feet is how far away you should sit to achieve the optimum balance. However, if you sit closer, what you can do is remove the back feet to tilt the speakers up.
 
Cap List (?)

I am lucky enough to have a pair on ice that I picked up for $600 on CL a few years back. I l knew they were gonna need the donuts, and I knew that was no biggie. Wasn't sure how they came apart (and more importantly, how they went back together), so I let them sit - I didn't wanna mess these beauts up! Now, after further review - thanks everybody - it looks like I'm gonna also need ferro-fluid (again, looks like no biggie), and a recap... :yikes:

Straightforward enough, but Falcon is apparently getting low on these caps, and I can't seem to find any other source for many of these values. I haven't disassembled to look at the x-over yet, but mine is the single-wired version (as seen above on Lee's, the OP).

I think I can make out the Cap list in the photo from Falcon. Please correct this if it's wrong...

3.3uF 50v LL
4.2uF 50v LL x2
7uF 50v
10uF 100v
16uF 100v
25uF 100v
30uF 100v
50uF 100v
100uF 50v x4
240uF 25v
450uF 25v
600uF 25v

Falcon no longer has 25v units - no sweat all above values are avail at 50v.
Falcon is also out of 100uF 50v units - again, no prob, 100v units are avail.
I didn't check each one of these, but some are no longer avail. @ 2%, although 5% and 10% are avail, and still much better than most.

Any other known source for these values? Surprisingly, Mouser didn't have many non-polarized electrolytics at all. And, Low-Loss?? Low-impedance, low-ESR, low-leakage - sure. But no "Low-Loss"? Are these proprietary and unique?

It sure feels like the clock is ticking on these...

Thanks for your help,
Victor
 
Last edited:
Here's a spreadsheet (below) I put together when I was working on these speakers. It might look a little strange, but copy and paste it into a Notepad document, and save with the extension CSV, and you should be able to open it in Excel and all will become clear.

Some of the larger values, I had to use two caps in parallel. Some of the smaller ones, I had to use the nearest available size, like 6.8uf instead of 7uf. Whether the human ear can hear the difference, I don't know. Some might argue that using film caps for the smaller values might affect the voicing. Parts Express sells smaller value electrolytics than Erse Audio, but they are all 10% dissipation factor (DF). Falcon say on their web site that their "regular" caps are 10% DF and their low-loss are 5% DF.

Lee.

KEF 104/2 crossover capacitors,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,
C,uF,Voltage,Type,Erse Audio Part Number,Dissipation Factor,Price,Notes
13,3.3,50,LL,MET25-05-3.30/PB,low,1.07,
12,4.2,50,LL,MET25-05-4.00/PB,low,1.23,use 4uf
14,4.2,50,LL,MET25-05-4.00/PB,low,1.23,use 4uf
1,7,50,LL,MET25-05-6.80/PB,low,1.82,use 6.8uf
16,10,100,,MET25-05-10.0/PB,low,2.65,
15,16,100,,ANP10C-05-16.0/PB,6.00,0.56,
8,25,100,,ANP10C-05-25.0/PB,6.00,0.65,
11,30,100,,ANP10C-05-30.0/PB,6.00,0.82,
10,50,100,,ANP10C-05-50.0/PB,6.00,0.88,
2,100,50,,ANP10C-05-100.0/PB,6.00,1.31,
3,100,50,,ANP10C-05-100.0/PB,6.00,1.31,
6,100,50,,ANP10C-05-100.0/PB,6.00,1.31,
7,100,50,,ANP10C-05-100.0/PB,6.00,1.31,
9,240,25,,ANP10C-05-220.0/PB,6.00,2.43,Use a 220uf and a 20uf
,,,,ANP10C-05-20.0/PB,6.00,0.61,in parallel.
5,450,25,,ANP10-05-350.0/PB,10.00,2.73,Use a 350uf and a 100uf
,,,,ANP10C-05-100.0/PB,6.00,1.31,in parallel.
4,600,25,,ANP10C-05-300.0/PB,6.00,3.30,Use two 300uf
,,,,ANP10C-05-300.0/PB,6.00,3.30,in parallel.

,,,,Total per speaker,,29.83,

,,,,Grand Total,,59.66,
 
RAMBUS_King said:
I am lucky enough to have a pair on ice that I picked up for $600 on CL a few years back. I l knew they were gonna need the donuts, and I knew that was no biggie. Wasn't sure how they came apart (and more importantly, how they went back together), so I let them sit - I didn't wanna mess these beauts up! Now, after further review - thanks everybody - it looks like I'm gonna also need ferro-fluid (again, looks like no biggie), and a recap... :yikes:

Straightforward enough, but Falcon is apparently getting low on these caps, and I can't seem to find any other source for many of these values. I haven't disassembled to look at the x-over yet, but mine is the single-wired version (as seen above on Lee's, the OP).

I think I can make out the Cap list in the photo from Falcon. Please correct this if it's wrong...

3.3uF 50v LL
4.2uF 50v LL x2
7uF 50v
10uF 100v
16uF 100v
25uF 100v
30uF 100v
50uF 100v
100uF 50v x4
240uF 25v
450uF 25v
600uF 25v

Falcon no longer has 25v units - no sweat all above values are avail at 50v.
Falcon is also out of 100uF 50v units - again, no prob, 100v units are avail.
I didn't check each one of these, but some are no longer avail. @ 2%, although 5% and 10% are avail, and still much better than most.

Any other known source for these values? Surprisingly, Mouser didn't have many non-polarized electrolytics at all. And, Low-Loss?? Low-impedance, low-ESR, low-leakage - sure. But no "Low-Loss"? Are these proprietary and unique?

It sure feels like the clock is ticking on these...

Thanks for your help,
Victor
Click to expand...

Here is the list I put together. Mine were single-wire as well (this is per speaker).

7mfd 50v LL
3.3mfd 50v LL
4.2mfd 50v LL x2
10mfd 100v
16mfd 100v
100mfd 50v x4
25mfd 100v
240mfd 70v
50mfd 100v
30mfd 100v
450mfd 50v
600mfd 50v
 
leesonic said:
...Parts Express sells smaller value electrolytics than Erse Audio, but they are all 10% dissipation factor (DF). Falcon say on their web site that their "regular" caps are 10% DF and their low-loss are 5% DF...
Click to expand...

Ah... KEF/ELCAP/ALCAP LL (Low-Loss) = 5% DF ! Excellent.
Parts Express did not have many of the pertinent values, and when they did Erse had 6% DF caps for the less than the 10% DF PartsEx caps. Thanks for the tip on Erse!

Working on splitting my order between Falcon and Erse. Falcon for the odd sizes and Erse for better DF for less money. I think I need to go check on that - I'm not sure now with factoring in extra shipping...

Thanks!
 
I had to make another post to upload the pictures again. Comcast dropped their personal web space, so all the pics on this (and my other threads) got deleted.

Lee.

KEF104-2resto45.jpg

KEF104-2resto46.jpg
 
I picked up a pair for 104/2 speakers last weekend. I want to refinish the cabinets. It appears that KEF used a polyurethane finish. My speakers are faded from UV exposure (lighter now than they originally were). The lower half of the back side of each speaker is much darker, probably original color. I assume that the original owner had them close to a window and the top portion was exposed to UV light. In addition there is a 4" X 4" spot on top of one of the speakers that is darker than the speakers should be. It looks like a water mark or a heat mark. These speaker have great veneers (teak) and would look stunning properly refinished.

Have any of the KEF owners refinished theirs? What did you do to remove the finish without raising the grain? I was thinking of using 3M safest stripper or Citri-Strip and Oxalic acid to get the water mark off.

I'll post pics if that would help.

I have already ordered ferrofluid and foam surrounds to refresh the drivers.

I want these to look drop dead gorgeous when they are completed.
 
mech986 said:
AFAIK, KEF never used a poly finish on the 104/2, that may have been applied by a previous owner. It supposedly has real wood veneer so stripping or light sanding then refinishing should be applicable.
http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/en/museum_pdf/80s/Reference_Series_Model_104_2_r.pdf
Click to expand...

I used the old "cotton ball/acetone" test on the finish. Acetone didn't melt the finish at all. That is why I assume it's polyurethane. KEF did a great job on the veneers. I don't want to cause any damage to the cabinets if I can avoid it. I hate harsh strippers. <Here come the jokes.>
 
Hello all, I have converted the list from Lee to an excel spreadsheet and everything looks good. I just do not understand the amounts that are needed for each capacitor. I have a pair of the earlier models that are not bi-wireable and would like to do the crossover upgrade. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
tillmbil said:
Hello all, I have converted the list from Lee to an excel spreadsheet and everything looks good. I just do not understand the amounts that are needed for each capacitor. I have a pair of the earlier models that are not bi-wireable and would like to do the crossover upgrade. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Click to expand...

This list?

7 microfarad, or uF as indicated on some caps
50 volts, or total voltage capacity. This is not a very important value. Caps with a 5v or higher total capacity will work the same.
LL = Low Loss. I think this is special to Alcaps brand capacitors, or the ones that Falcon sources. I don't see a lot of companies using this nomenclature.
The tolerance is probably more important than LL. Keeping tolerances to within 5% at a minimum, but preferably 2% would be ideal.



7mfd 50v LL
3.3mfd 50v LL
4.2mfd 50v LL x2
10mfd 100v
16mfd 100v
100mfd 50v x4
25mfd 100v
240mfd 70v
50mfd 100v
30mfd 100v
450mfd 50v
600mfd 50v
 
Low loss indicates a lower ESR. Similar to say, a mylar or polypropylene capacitor. This is why they're more expensive.
 
Got it,
How many of each one do I need? I was to understand that there were 16 per crossover, and there are 12 listed.
 
I'm also interested in eventually recapping my single-wire version 104/2. Please keep up updated about your Erse order! I'd love to order a set for mine too.
 
Don't forget, sometimes you might have to mix and match values depending on what they have in stock. Like two 300uF instead of a single 600uF.

Lee.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom