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L-Pad wiring

I have wired the L-pad both with and without the negative wired to the l-pad or wired directly to the speaker. It seemed to make no difference. The l-pad definitely attenuated without a negative connection. So I don't think it's a factor one way or the other.
BTW, I have been meaning to ask you about something. I want to hook up 2 tweeters to the one L-pad. I could do it 2 ways. 1st--- (in parallel) hookup both tweeter positive wires to L-pads output or 2nd---- (series) hookup a wire from l-pad output to 1st tweeter positive input and then another wire from 1st tweeter to 2nd tweeter positive input. I think this would give different impedances. Comments ??
 
BTW, I have been meaning to ask you about something. I want to hook up 2 tweeters to the one L-pad. I could do it 2 ways. 1st--- (in parallel) hookup both tweeter positive wires to L-pads output or 2nd---- (series) hookup a wire from l-pad output to 1st tweeter positive input and then another wire from 1st tweeter to 2nd tweeter positive input. I think this would give different impedances. Comments ??

Either approach is 100% guaranteed to FAIL. I suggest reading a good book on speaker design which will explain all of the issues with which you are wrestling. Deeper understanding is required to not make a mess out of the speakers.

Ohm's Law remains the law of the land:
If the two drivers are series wired, the total resistance is increased: 8 Ω + 8 Ω = 16 Ω
If the two drivers are parallel wired, the total resistance is decreased: 8 Ω || 8 Ω = 4 Ω​

The crossover is another name for an electrical filter, which was, of necessity, designed for a particular resistance and only that resistance. I suggest reviewing the formulas below set forth, which will should clearly render the issues.

As you may below see, given that for an low-pass filter (inductor) fc ≈ R, and for a high-pass filter (capacitor) fc ≈ 1/R. So for the high-pass tweeter filter, doubling R with the high-pass filter will reduce the the corner frequency by half. The overlap with the midrange will not only sound terrible — excessive volume, comb artifacts from geographically distant drivers, etc. — depending upon the tweeter type the lower frequencies may result in damage or destruction.

Here is what I have previously posted about the actual filter calculations, since most people are using calculators which mask understanding the effects of changing values for the filter components.

Formulas for crossover filters:
Given:
R is Nominal Speaker Impedance (Ω)
C is Capacitance (Farad)
L is Inductance (Henry)

fc is Corner Frequency (Hertz)

Inductor Formulas:
L = R / (2π ×
fc) (Henry)
fc = R / (2π × L) (Hertz)
R = 2
π × L × fc (Ω)

Capacitor Formulas:
C = 1 / (2
π × fc × R) (Farad)
fc = 1 / (2π × C × R) (Hertz)
R = 1 / (2
π × C × fc) (Ω)

L is inductance in
Henry.
To convert from Henry (H) to milliHenry (mH) multiply by 1,000.
To convert from milliHenry (mH) to Henry (H) divide by 1,000.

C is capacitance in Farad.
To convert from Farad (F)to microFarad (uF) multiply by 1,000,000.
To convert from microFarad (uF) to Farad (F) divide by 1,000,000 or multiply by 0.000001.

The easiest way to run these calculations with a calculator, be it physical or computer, is to compute the invariant portion, store in memory, and then tinker with values. For example, the inductor calculations for the low-pass filter can be performed as:
fc = R / (2π × L) (Hertz)
R = 8 Ω
L = (unknown value) in milliHenries, not Henries
fc = 8 / (2π × 0.001 × L) (Hertz)
Compute without L and then divide by the mH value (not scaling to Henries) as needed, essentially:
fc ≈ 1,273 / L (Hertz)

Example:
L = 1.59 mH
fc ≈ (memory recall) / 1.59 (Hertz)

L = 1.60 mH
fc ≈ (memory recall) / 1.6 (Hertz)
So, mechanically, compute the entire equation without L, and store in memory. Then recall that value and divide by L as mH. For example, to compute the frequency for, say, 1.59 mH versus 1.6 mH, compute everything except L, store in memory, then do a memory-recall and divide by 1.59 and then a memory-recall and divide by 1.6, since the 0.001 factory is already entered. Makes it far less time consuming.

A similar trick can be done with capacitance calculations for the high-pass filter.
f = 1 / (2π × C × R) (Hertz)
R = 8 Ω
C = (unknown value) in µF
f = 1 / (2π × 0.000001 × C × 8) (Hertz)
Compute without C and add as needed, essentially:
f ≈ 19,894 / C

Example:
C = 8.2 µF
f ≈ (memory recall) / 8.2 (Hertz)

C = 8 µF
f ≈ (memory recall) / 8 (Hertz)
So if you wanted to compute the difference between 8 µF and 8.2 µF (standard value) all that would be needed is to divide the pre-computed value by 8 or 8.2.

Greatly simplifies the calculations and saves considerable time.
 
Here's what I previously wrote about books which may help newcomers to speakers to understand how drivers and crossovers are combined to form loudspeakers.

An excellent guide is Loudspeaker Design Cookbook (7th ed.) by Vance Dickason (2005).

If you want to delve deeper, then the Ray Alden books will be useful.
Advanced Speaker Designs for the Hobbyist & Technician by Ray Alden (1995)
Speaker Building 201 by J. B. Hall and Ray Alden (2017)​
These books are inexpensive and worth the money.

My inclusion or exclusion of other authors is not intended to disparage them or their work; I, in fact, own many of their books in addition to the above. The issue is the content tends to fall into either general surveys (say, such as How to Build Speaker Enclosures by Badmaieff & Davis, who clearly had an axe to grind, or H. A. Hartley's work which is a general treatment of the field, with an emphasis on his own work) which lack the details of the above books, or the more advanced (such as Testing Loudspeakers by Joseph D'Appolito) which assumes too much basic knowledge for most HiFi speaker aficionados and won't cover the basics.
 
I have wired the L-pad both with and without the negative wired to the l-pad or wired directly to the speaker. It seemed to make no difference. The l-pad definitely attenuated without a negative connection. So I don't think it's a factor one way or the other.

No, that is completely incorrect. If the extra connector, and thus the extra wiper, were superfluous for the purpose of constant-resistance attenuation, then neither would not be included. We call devices with a variable resistance, and not delivering a constant resistance, by the name "rheostat" or "potentiometer". Totally different purpose.

The L-pad is two variable resistors of very different values than the nominal value of "4 Ω", "8 Ω", or "16 Ω". You may trivially prove this by measuring the value at the extremes.

Miswiring the L-pad will not and can not yield the desired results.

Adding a variable resistance to the driver path will, of necessity, reduce voltage to the driver and thereby attenuate it.

But
the series resitance simultaneously shifts the crossover point, as above explained, creating overlap and frequency shifts.

I suggest reading on the interwebs about how the L-pad functions, and you will then understand how you have failed to properly connect the attenuator.
 
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I have just done some exhaustive testing, not with meters or oscilloscopes, but with my ears. With a single 16 ohm l-pad wired with 2 tweeters in parallel it gives me attenuation all the way from the tweeters being cut out to being overly shrill, with a pleasant setting at about 3 o'clock. No change in bass or midrange, or in second set of speakers for surround. I am happy with it, don't need ohm's law, shohm's law or pie R squared to tell me I am wrong. Thanks for your input.
 
I have just done some exhaustive testing, not with meters or oscilloscopes, but with my ears. With a single 16 ohm l-pad wired with 2 tweeters in parallel it gives me attenuation all the way from the tweeters being cut out to being overly shrill, with a pleasant setting at about 3 o'clock. No change in bass or midrange, or in second set of speakers for surround. I am happy with it, don't need ohm's law, shohm's law or pie R squared to tell me I am wrong. Thanks for your input.

Always gratifying to learn how the entirety of electrical engineering is a total scam used to needlessly oppress the masses, and that the laws of physics continue to vary, not merely by country, not merely by state, but even by block and lot. Pi-r-squared certainly is a tool of oppression! Power to the people! Cast off the yoke of bourgeois formula control and be free!

I look forward to the detailed explanations of how well over a century of theoretical and practical work on LC, RC, and RLC electrical filters is completely incorrect, and that the great luminaries in the field were merely base con artists, deliberately fooling generations of electrical engineers and physicists for their, as yet unspecified, nefarious purposes. Curse you Bode, we don't need your steenkin' transfer functions!

I, for one, welcome our equation-free and math-free filter overlords.
 
Always gratifying to learn how the entirety of electrical engineering is a total scam used to needlessly oppress the masses, and that the laws of physics continue to vary, not merely by country, not merely by state, but even by block and lot. Pi-r-squared certainly is a tool of oppression! Power to the people! Cast off the yoke of bourgeois formula control and be free!

I look forward to the detailed explanations of how well over a century of theoretical and practical work on LC, RC, and RLC electrical filters is completely incorrect, and that the great luminaries in the field were merely base con artists, deliberately fooling generations of electrical engineers and physicists for their, as yet unspecified, nefarious purposes. Curse you Bode, we don't need your steenkin' transfer functions!

I, for one, welcome our equation-free and math-free filter overlords.
Of course I don't suggest it is all bogus. After all, I am sure we could not have reached the moon without it. But the moon is one thing, trusting one's judgement on something as subjective as hearing is another. How do you explain the vast differences in how speaker B sounds better than speaker A, when all of your holy laws, schematics and instrument readings say the opposite? The EAR is boss!
 
Of course I don't suggest it is all bogus. After all, I am sure we could not have reached the moon without it. But the moon is one thing, trusting one's judgement on something as subjective as hearing is another. How do you explain the vast differences in how speaker B sounds better than speaker A, when all of your holy laws, schematics and instrument readings say the opposite? The EAR is boss!

I attempted to explain the issues at hand via the standard formulas relied upon since the late 1800s. This was a waste of time.

Rather than investigate how filters actually function, you, instead, categorically rejected said explanation based upon an idiosyncratic and misguided denial of basic electrical engineering and physics. Why? Because a shifted crossover point apparently is more pleasing to you than a flat response. That does not mean that the filter formulas are incorrect, it merely means you prefer a distorted sound with either (a) overlap between drivers or (b) gaps in the frequency response. Because those are the only two options with the driver resistance is doubled or halved. Such alterations could easily be understand using the formulas, if you were willing to acknowledge the truth of filter theory and practice.

I look forward to reading your comprehensive rewrite of well-accepted electrical engineering and physics after publication in respected, peer-reviewed journals from the APS and IEEE.
 
I attempted to explain the issues at hand via the standard formulas relied upon since the late 1800s. This was a waste of time.

Rather than investigate how filters actually function, you, instead, categorically rejected said explanation based upon an idiosyncratic and misguided denial of basic electrical engineering and physics. Why? Because a shifted crossover point apparently is more pleasing to you than a flat response. That does not mean that the filter formulas are incorrect, it merely means you prefer a distorted sound with either (a) overlap between drivers or (b) gaps in the frequency response. Because those are the only two options with the driver resistance is doubled or halved. Such alterations could easily be understand using the formulas, if you were willing to acknowledge the truth of filter theory and practice.

I look forward to reading your comprehensive rewrite of well-accepted electrical engineering and physics after publication in respected, peer-reviewed journals from the APS and IEEE.
You sound like a slave to technocratic thought. You discount the human sensory responses and exalt engineering and physics! Of limited imagination, and capable only of slavish devotion to what you are told is the unalterable truth! Next time you listen to music, ignore the spiritual uplift and think about electrons flowing thru transistors, coils, resistors, capacitors etc. Remind yourself of Ohms and Maxwells, of Micro-farads and Micro-micro-farads, of all things technical and of no things that challenge you to do anything other than read a book (or spec sheet etc) and believe it is the know all and the end all.
 
You sound like a slave to technocratic thought. [blah-blah-blah]

It is very common for people to think their speakers sound good. And after they recap the speakers, they realize that their speakers sound great. It has happened to me. Others have reported the same. If you were to listen to some of the knowledgeable members who have offered advice here, you may come to realize that your speakers could sound better.

So, I am happy that you think your speakers sound good. But if they sound so good and you will only believe your ears, why did you start this thread?

If they sound good to you, listen to them and do whatever you want. The rest of us will apply known science and engineering to our speakers and listen to great sounding speakers, or at least speakers that provide their best possible sound.
 
It is very common for people to think their speakers sound good. And after they recap the speakers, they realize that their speakers sound great. It has happened to me. Others have reported the same. If you were to listen to some of the knowledgeable members who have offered advice here, you may come to realize that your speakers could sound better.

So, I am happy that you think your speakers sound good. But if they sound so good and you will only believe your ears, why did you start this thread?

If they sound good to you, listen to them and do whatever you want. The rest of us will apply known science and engineering to our speakers and listen to great sounding speakers, or at least speakers that provide their best possible sound.
I started this thread for a few reasons. Primarily, after I re-capped and noticed the improvement, I thought I should solicit advice on my L-pad situation because a few things had changed. 1. The l-pads, like the capacitors, were almost 60 years old. Would it help to upgrade them? 2. All my speaker components in this system were old Jensen 16 ohm units, and 16 ohm l-pads are hard to get, esp if they are "stereo" pads. (2 pads on one shaft). Which is what I wanted because I also wanted to add a 2nd 16 ohm tweeter I recently came by. With one person I had some nice back and forth with. He was trying to be helpful. With the other he wanted to preach down from heaven on his technical expertise and how I must be some sort of Cretan for what I wanted to do. This is all so typical of what you get in these forums, some friendly helpful types and some Let me show you how smart I am types. At this point I am running 2 tweeters off of a single L-pad, and was wondering if it would be worth it if I could run them each off of a separate pad. Easier said than done as dual 16 ohm pads are as rare as hen's teeth, and 2 mono pads could not fit inside my cabinet, at least not if both were mounted on the front baffle.
 
why did you start this thread?

My question, also.

With one person I had some nice back and forth with. He was trying to be helpful. With the other he wanted to preach down from heaven on his technical expertise and how I must be some sort of Cretan for what I wanted to do.

My interactions with @Retrovert have been nothing but pleasant.
The fact that he took the time to write over 83 lines of text in an attempt to answer your initial post as to how L-pads work speaks volumes of his willingness to share his time and knowledge with AK members.

And now you are asking yet another question of which you probably won't like the answer.

This is all so typical of what you get in these forums

Then why bother?
 
My question, also.



My interactions with @Retrovert have been nothing but pleasant.
The fact that he took the time to write over 83 lines of text in an attempt to answer your initial post as to how L-pads work speaks volumes of his willingness to share his time and knowledge with AK members.

And now you are asking yet another question of which you probably won't like the answer.



Then why bother?
The point I was trying to make was that speakers should be judged subjectively, by how they sound to you, not by their specifications (which could very well be dictated by marketing rather than by objective measurements). The ears, and not schematics, rule here. That goes for their crossovers and their l-pads too. It seems I touched a lot of raw nerves here. So be it. Dump on me all you want, if it makes you feel better. I guess that makes me some kind of doctor! Have a great day, all of you.
 
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