Leben. Thinking something drastic here.
- Thread starter JohnVF
- Start date
Peter Walker
Well-Known Member
I'm too lazy to read through this entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something already said. I run a Leben preamp into Icon Audio MB845 II 'Signature' mono blocks and couldn't be happier with the very musical results I'm getting . I do however disagree with you about the look of Leben gear. The colours from my perspective are really off.
SET12
Super Member
JohnVF said:
Hi JohnVF,
To give a little of my background.
Evidently we both go back to similar days of the AR3a's and for me I go back to the AR LST's both the I's and II's the ones of which used the AR3a's drivers in that day the AR LST was one powerful speaker not to mention very expensive for my income at the time.
I have been to many, many Audio Shops and Trade shows through the yrs as well.
And through the yrs have heard what I feel are a few outstanding amplifiers and have owned even a few.
My last SS amp before getting into tubes and design my own amplifiers was a Forte Model 4 which was one of the nicest sounding SS amps I had ever known.
As for tube amps I'm pretty much a Single-Ended man mostly cause I love the full spectrum of harmonics they offer.
I find its harder to find a great Tube SET amp then it is a great PP Tube amp but it can be done and even built as I have done. Power is pretty irrelevant to me as its what the first watt does thats important but power is relevant when it comes to volume if needed certainly.
I have heard a few $10,000 amplifiers certainly like VAC's, Cary 805's (with 211 tubes) and so on. Vintage I liked the Luxman 3045's and modified Pilot EL84 amplifiers and a few others.
A Pilot 240 Integrated that I modified into a basic Power Amp still has enough sensitivity to work very well with a passive preamp. With killer looks with all its brass and walnut base.
I had never been much of a PP EL34 fan but a while ago I had one at home here for repairs for a friend his Antique Sound AQ1003DHT Integrated EL34 amplifier which is very, very nice looking with chrome and black in a fairly compact design.
Once it was repaired I listened and thought its sound was pretty typical EL34 sound but thought it still could be better!
So I suggested to him to substitute the amps four 12AU7 driver tubes for 12BH7 driver tubes. the amp had the extra filament capacity and the gain of 12BH7 is similar to the 12AU7.
I knew that in my mind that the sound of a 12BH7 was hands down far more musical than any 12AU7 I have heard and in fact the 12AU7 has considerably more distortion as well. So I slipped them in and gave the amp a listen.
What I wasn't prepared for was how good the sound was with the combination of EL34's with the 12BH7's!
I was floored literally, the sound had such body and authority with depth and scale with nice round holographic images I was really amazed.
To beat this amp with the 12BH7's in it one would literally have to spend thousands and then if it is beaten, I as by how much?
The owner of the amp was going to sell it till he heard it with the 12BH7's!
A little on its topology.
I had an early version here no remote control, but who cares when it sounds like what I heard!
30 watts Class A
A long tail phase inverter
Inter-stage volume control
Fixed individual adjustable bias, very easy with the meter on the amp
The thing that stood out to me on the schematic is that it does not use Global feedback but uses the Ultra-Linear taps (form of feedback) as its local feedback.
Note: I have never been an Ultra-Linear fan to speak of as to me Pentode connection is much more dynamic typically for my tastes.
Bass was outstanding because of its local feedback (Ultra-Linear but no Global) IMO
Now the price! how about 5-$700 used! plus the cost of the 12BH7's
I have never heard the Marantz 8b EL34 amp but it uses the 6CG7 (similar to the 12BH7) as a long tail phase inverter.
Now I know perhaps some of the fuss over the 8b but who knows the the AQ1003DHT may even be better with the 12BH7's of course!
SET12
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
John I haven't read much of this thread past your original post, so you or someone else might have already mentioned this, but Stereophile recently reviewed a Leben integrated and phono stage together, and the reviewer (can't remember which one of them it was) seemed very happy with them.
I saw that interview...it was a comparison between the Leben CS-300, the Luxman and another integrated that I can't remember. I want to say it was Art Dudley's review but I only read it quickly at a Barnes & Noble. I'm really starting to think now about the CS-300x now, though, as I've come across many posts elsewhere where the users use my speakers in similar rooms and don't feel them lacking for power. The Harbeth's aren't efficient, but they're a very easy load and I've driven them with 18wpc Class-A with good results. I know I had my old Kef 103.2s on an EL-84 Eico amp once, and though they were typically pigs to get sound out of, they worked incredibly well with that amp despite its modest power. I don't like the look of the CS-300x as much as the CS-600 but it can be had considerably cheaper, and then I could possibly swing the phono stage at a later date...as I do need a phono stage and the Parasound JC-3 I was looking at no longer fits my downsize-rule. Its the size of a full size line stage preamp. And I'd still have the Levinson/McCormack around when I wanted to have more power for a change.
Hi JohnVF,
To give a little of my background.
Evidently we both go back to similar days of the AR3a's and for me I go back to the AR LST's both the I's and II's the ones of which used the AR3a's drivers in that day the AR LST was one powerful speaker not to mention very expensive for my income at the time.
I have been to many, many Audio Shops and Trade shows through the yrs as well.
And through the yrs have heard what I feel are a few outstanding amplifiers and have owned even a few.
My last SS amp before getting into tubes and design my own amplifiers was a Forte Model 4 which was one of the nicest sounding SS amps I had ever known.
As for tube amps I'm pretty much a Single-Ended man mostly cause I love the full spectrum of harmonics they offer.
I find its harder to find a great Tube SET amp then it is a great PP Tube amp but it can be done and even built as I have done. Power is pretty irrelevant to me as its what the first watt does thats important but power is relevant when it comes to volume if needed certainly.
I have heard a few $10,000 amplifiers certainly like VAC's, Cary 805's (with 211 tubes) and so on. Vintage I liked the Luxman 3045's and modified Pilot EL84 amplifiers and a few others.
A Pilot 240 Integrated that I modified into a basic Power Amp still has enough sensitivity to work very well with a passive preamp. With killer looks with all its brass and walnut base.
I had never been much of a PP EL34 fan but a while ago I had one at home here for repairs for a friend his Antique Sound AQ1003DHT Integrated EL34 amplifier which is very, very nice looking with chrome and black in a fairly compact design.
Once it was repaired I listened and thought its sound was pretty typical EL34 sound but thought it still could be better!
So I suggested to him to substitute the amps four 12AU7 driver tubes for 12BH7 driver tubes. the amp had the extra filament capacity and the gain of 12BH7 is similar to the 12AU7.
I knew that in my mind that the sound of a 12BH7 was hands down far more musical than any 12AU7 I have heard and in fact the 12AU7 has considerably more distortion as well. So I slipped them in and gave the amp a listen.
What I wasn't prepared for was how good the sound was with the combination of EL34's with the 12BH7's!
I was floored literally, the sound had such body and authority with depth and scale with nice round holographic images I was really amazed.
To beat this amp with the 12BH7's in it one would literally have to spend thousands and then if it is beaten, I as by how much?
The owner of the amp was going to sell it till he heard it with the 12BH7's!
A little on its topology.
I had an early version here no remote control, but who cares when it sounds like what I heard!
30 watts Class A
A long tail phase inverter
Inter-stage volume control
Fixed individual adjustable bias, very easy with the meter on the amp
The thing that stood out to me on the schematic is that it does not use Global feedback but uses the Ultra-Linear taps (form of feedback) as its local feedback.
Note: I have never been an Ultra-Linear fan to speak of as to me Pentode connection is much more dynamic typically for my tastes.
Bass was outstanding because of its local feedback (Ultra-Linear but no Global) IMO
Now the price! how about 5-$700 used! plus the cost of the 12BH7's
I have never heard the Marantz 8b EL34 amp but it uses the 6CG7 (similar to the 12BH7) as a long tail phase inverter.
Now I know perhaps some of the fuss over the 8b but who knows the the AQ1003DHT may even be better with the 12BH7's of course!
SET12
SET12...thanks for the detailed writeup. I have a feeling that this downsize won't eliminate my experimenting, and the road I take may take me down something like what you're describing here. I don't really know my way, at all, around the inside of an amp, which is another reason I like the idea of something more plug and play like the Leben..but getting off of the gear-merry-go round hopefully will give me time to build the tube phono stage that I've decided will be my first foray into building something, so I can start to learn what all of this stuff is. After that, and who knows when that will be as work is crazy...then I might consider the kind of path you're talking about here. As it is....my issue isn't that I'm unhappy with my McCormack/Dynaco setup, its that I want something in one box (or two with a phono stage). I plan on taking a long break from buying anything amp-wise, unless at some point later I chase the SET dragon. Everything seems to be pointing me in that direction...
SET12
Super Member
I read it to. The integrated I recommended will hold its own, its that involving!
The Leben is said to have a very good low end foundation and even more than the quad and the the Luxman.
The Antique Sound Amplifier has such a foundation there is nothing lean about it and its not excessively tubey. In fact the Antique sounds like a nice KT88 amplifier, A rare trait if you ask me.
Another nice thing about the Antique is it has 30 Watts of Class A power vs a Leben with 12 watts @ $3400. The other Leben is nearly $10,000.
The wild thing about the Antique is its rather somewhat conventional design and while the DHT model has a few better parts the quality it could go even further. At the cost of this amp used one could afford to go after some very,very good subjective quality parts.
The Antique with 12BH7 tubes in it is not a subtle difference in sound from most EL34 amps I have heard, its a couple of magnitudes better IMO.
I had the opportunity to hear some 300B Cardinal mono blocks which retail for $12,000 in a friends home. Superb musical mono blocks.
I can tell you the Antique is every bit as involving while maybe not at the same refinement level but surely start adding Boutique parts to it and it will be knocking on the Cardinals door. And for rock, The Leben will likely fall down unless very efficient speakers are used while the Antique will rock!
Its so good that I will be building from scratch a mono block pair myself in the future.
I guess it isn't an issue with money to burn, but it's even cooler to have a sleeper like the Antique and tell someone that they have maybe $1000 or less into it.
I can't swear by the newer versions with remote but I can for the early version I had here. And it appears by photo's the early version looks a little nicer to me.
SET12
The Leben is said to have a very good low end foundation and even more than the quad and the the Luxman.
The Antique Sound Amplifier has such a foundation there is nothing lean about it and its not excessively tubey. In fact the Antique sounds like a nice KT88 amplifier, A rare trait if you ask me.
Another nice thing about the Antique is it has 30 Watts of Class A power vs a Leben with 12 watts @ $3400. The other Leben is nearly $10,000.
The wild thing about the Antique is its rather somewhat conventional design and while the DHT model has a few better parts the quality it could go even further. At the cost of this amp used one could afford to go after some very,very good subjective quality parts.
The Antique with 12BH7 tubes in it is not a subtle difference in sound from most EL34 amps I have heard, its a couple of magnitudes better IMO.
I had the opportunity to hear some 300B Cardinal mono blocks which retail for $12,000 in a friends home. Superb musical mono blocks.
I can tell you the Antique is every bit as involving while maybe not at the same refinement level but surely start adding Boutique parts to it and it will be knocking on the Cardinals door. And for rock, The Leben will likely fall down unless very efficient speakers are used while the Antique will rock!
Its so good that I will be building from scratch a mono block pair myself in the future.
I guess it isn't an issue with money to burn, but it's even cooler to have a sleeper like the Antique and tell someone that they have maybe $1000 or less into it.
I can't swear by the newer versions with remote but I can for the early version I had here. And it appears by photo's the early version looks a little nicer to me.
SET12
Yeah that is fun, you should see the looks on people's faces when I compare a 400wpc Levinson with an original retail of over $8000 to my slightly tweeked Dynaco which I paid $400 for...and the Dynaco, on speakers that aren't difficult to drive, floors the more expensive amp, every time, in everything except low end control. It shines on my ESLs, though.
I'll look into this amp that you speak so highly of. Nothings set in stone..yet. The CS-600 at 30wpc could drive my Harbeths for sure, and its 'only' $5k.
SET12
Super Member
Its not to costly to have a Tech swap parts for you! especially at the initial cost of the amp.
Yes I know all about the SET dragon as most of my peers all have SET amplifiers and really don't care to back to PP.
And yes I know a thing or two of Phono Stages and have high requirements but couldn't afford $10,000 phono stages so I had to design and build my own but have I got hooked on digital mods, and am affraid if I go back to LP I might not want to listen much to my digital. But it does take a pretty decent LP rig to beat my digital which I feel is nearly as good as a $10,000 red book player.
Just what phono are you looking to build?
SET12
I know all about ruining one format for another...I found a $10,000 red book player (and SACD) for a grand and am pretty much all-digital now, it totally spoiled me. The phono stage was one of the Hagerman models, I'll have to check again which one- wrote it down somewhere. I'm not so much worried about my vinyl set up anymore as I don't miss the hassle of vinyl now that my CD player sounds so good.
just dave
vintage rules!
I only know the Leben amps through photos and reviews, but I was also very interested in distilling my system down to fewer and smaller but top-quality components, and the smaller of the Lebens looked just about perfect.
But the Nov. 2011 Stereophile bench test of the CS300 and in particular the square wave test did not look like something I'd expect to see in a highly-regarded $3400 component: A good deal of overshoot + ringing visible. This might have been avoided by rolling off frequency response before 30 kHz unless that's supposed to be part of the sonic magic!
Despite it all, I might still want one someday, but it may as well be secondhand and out of warranty because probably the first thing I'm going to do is "fix" it.
But the Nov. 2011 Stereophile bench test of the CS300 and in particular the square wave test did not look like something I'd expect to see in a highly-regarded $3400 component: A good deal of overshoot + ringing visible. This might have been avoided by rolling off frequency response before 30 kHz unless that's supposed to be part of the sonic magic!
Despite it all, I might still want one someday, but it may as well be secondhand and out of warranty because probably the first thing I'm going to do is "fix" it.
I saw those measurements as well and thought they could be better (they were also for the CS-300 and not 300x, I believe). That said, I have gear that measures perfectly but leaves me bored..and the Leben gear has a cult following of people who say that it changed their perception about high end gear. So who knows? I have to try something to really know.
the_nines
Lunatic Member
Posted twice, see below.
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the_nines
Lunatic Member
As a proud owner of a CS600, I would say to you, it's a purchase you will never regret, and, chances are you will never part with. Worth every nickel.
As well, something magical happens with Leben & DeVore. If you get a chance, audition this combo.
If you need any re-assurance about the Leben, PM me.
:thmbsp: x 100
Cheers!
Here's mine:
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sheltie dave
Addicted Member
John and Writethis, you two are the potential buyers, with the rest of us(likely) being the tire kickers. Does Saturday, November 18th work better for both of you?
I have a couple SET amps I could bring for the listening session, but the main focus would obviously be on the Lebens and Harbeths.
I could say a fair amount on the ongoing conversations, but the best part of the decision process is just listening and eyeballing a potential addition. :yes:
I have a couple SET amps I could bring for the listening session, but the main focus would obviously be on the Lebens and Harbeths.
I could say a fair amount on the ongoing conversations, but the best part of the decision process is just listening and eyeballing a potential addition. :yes:
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Well done. I've listened to the Nines with Mastersound amps on Box racks many times and they are a match made in heaven. More sensitive than John's Harbeth's. I've seen that system before in pics and it is quite lovely. Harbeth and DeVore, my two favorite speakers. The Leben is fabulous...what did you own before that and how is the Leben better?
BTW I've owned both DeVore and ProAc Studio series speakers...very nice.
jn229
Super Member
I just have a moment to check in but wanted to thank you for chiming in...I'll pm some questions later if you have a moment. Beautiful system! My mind is pretty made up on Leben, its just a matter of which one.