Lenco L75 or Ariston Audio RD11s or Thorens TD125 mk2?

[Guest143]

Lenco vs Linn vs Thorens 125

After my own recent experiences with a Thorens 125 (and Linn, and Lenco, and Techie too) I just had to agree with this; from a post above, “…the TD-125 can still keep up with contemporary high-end and very expensive turntables.” Especially because of its natural-sounding tonality, I can envisage opting for a 125 (or a Linn with a more bass-neutral “Keel” upgrade, or even a re-armed Techie) over several mega-buck TTs which are not as realistic in tone. I’d previously thought of tone and dynamics as equal in importance (with detail-resolution bringing up the rear) but recent events have led me to see tone as slightly more important than dynamism.

I’d stress, however, that; while the 125 may be good with its own arm, I find that it’s much, much better when the arm is upgraded. After years of acknowledging that my Linn was better than my 125/SME-3009II, subsequent experiments with both the Linn’s Ittok and a lowly Sugden SAU2 arm proved to me that the 125 was/is significantly better (and more neutral; without the Linn’s midbass hump) in my own personal opinion. YMMV. (Surprisingly, the SAU2 arm from a little Connoisseur BD2 was virtually as good as the Ittok – with MMs ONLY – and I believe its great performance against the Ittok and others is mainly due to the fact that its ideal low mass better matches the MM carts which I use).

Regarding the Lenco L75, I’d lusted after one for quite some time – mainly because of its reportedly awesome dynamism. And I’d fully expected it to blow away all my TTs, based on all the reports I’d read. But, though the Linn was out of the running (mostly because of its coloured midbass, IMO) the Thorens simply refused to be defeated. It’s true, the Lenco was/is slightly more dynamic, but the Thorens is very nearly as dynamic while it also has a fuller and more natural tone (making voices and instruments more believable) in addition to being significantly more detailed and better at the fades of notes.

Much more on these and similar views can be found in the book; “Guide to the Best HiFi Stereo System – At the Least Cost,” after a quick google-search. But I sometimes wonder if I’m one of only a very few who find the Lenco to be a bit ‘thin’ in its midrange tonality. My experiments have led to improvements with mats (which also brought improvements in low-bass, which I’d thought a bit light) but the major improvement in regard to midrange tonality (and in several other areas) came with the double-stacking of platters (+ the doubled mats). In fact, there’s at least one other Lenco user who suggests that his unit sounds a bit thin unless he double-stacks platters for tonal and other “huge” improvements. Incidentally, he stacks a very expensive VPI “Super-Platter” atop his Lenco, which he calls; “Yoda.” And his comments can be found in a Lenco-Heaven thread entitled. “What is the point of a stacked platter”

Curious as to whether anyone else has had a similar experience regarding the Lenco’s tonality. (I sometimes wonder if my own unit was/is a bit extreme in this regard).

Nevertheless, I very much like both the Thorens and the Lenco, despite the fore-mentioned concerns with the latter, and especially in a scenario where I’m keeping both. Both are great, and I believe stacked platters yield much greater benefits than all the other popular Lenco mods put together. Arguably, stacked platters bring a standard Lenco from Class C to Class B levels of performance. Hopefully, the Lenco can be further modded to completely match or surpass the Thorens in tone and detail - and so my outlook may change, later - I'll continue to experiment there. But, today, if I had to make a choice between the two, it’s quite possible that I’d keep the one which sounds more natural to me, overall.

A bit late with this post, but - great choice - enjoy that 125!

 

[Onebean]

waj4all, thanks for the comprehensive write up. I am curious as to what cartridge you used on these tables, and if the same cartridge was used on all the tables. The Lenco stock arm is a tough one to match a cartridge too. I use a Denon 103 on mine and it is the best analog payback I have ever heard. It dethroned my Technics SL-1200 in stock form with a Dynavector DV-20x2, there was no comparison. I was listening to Fleetwood Mac / Rumors and Steeldrivers / Reckless last night, and the realism of voices, along with solid bass and cymbals that crash and decay is unbelievable. I will attribute some of the credit to my Scott 222C, it has a dang nice phono preamp. I will own a TD-125, hopefully sooner than later. Thanks again for the write up. Keep us posted on any mods you make to these tables, and the results.

 

[vintagegroov]

I’d stress, however, that; while the 125 may be good with its own arm, I find that it’s much, much better when the arm is upgraded.

Interesting story and comparisons. I haven't posted any pictures yet as I still don't have my system, the amp is still being upgraded. Once it's all together I'll put up some pix.

Not long after I bought my 125 two more went for sale with the SME tonearm. I'm not in a position to sell mine to get those, so I'll leave that option off the table at this point.

Is the SME that much better than the stock one? Why? Is there some other tone arm that is comparable to the SME (or better) within that price range?

Re the stock tone arm; what recommendations do you have for some good stylus? Say a range from affordable with good quality sound up to a higher price, but still reasonable level (like $500 or less)?

 

[Guest143]

Onebean, my main carts now are Signet TK7E & Audio-Technica AT-12S. Both of these were and still are used in such tests, but past tests had included my Grado Sonata, Shure V15III, and even a humble Stanton 500. For all serious tests, the very same arm/cart combo is used for all TTs. Armboards or pods were rigged for all TTs where necessary, though in the case of my Techie (SL1700) it was impossible to get a perfect spindle to pivot distancing, yet the Techie did very well under the circumstances, despite running a respectable last (with a vastly improved performance over its own arm). The pic beside my posts shows the Techie in operation with the Ittok in one of these tests, BTW.

Incidentally, I did also experiment with my own (unsorted) Lenco arm, and I do agree with those who say that when properly sorted it’s as good as or better than some of the arms it’s being replaced with. (One user had bought a well-rated Ortofon AS-212 and found that it was about par with his Lenco arm).

Vintagegroov, FWIW, I don’t consider the 3009II much of an upgrade over your Thorens arm. Except for the fact that it has perhaps the most beautiful midrange in the business, many also accuse it of diminished dynamics, diminished response at the frequency-extremes, and a soft midbass – and that was pretty-much my own experience too, with both my Ittok and humble SAU2 outperforming it in every area except midband ‘beauty.’ However, after divesting myself of my own 3009II, I learned that it could be made to perform slightly better if the supplied rubber-grommets for the baseplate are omitted. So it’s quite possible some users are eliciting better performance than I did, though I’m not sure it could reach the level of an Ittok, for instance.

Regarding an arm upgrade, yes, I’d strongly advise such a move – it has the potential to unleash all of the 125’s true potential, which is only partially exposed with a Thorens or 3009II arm, as installed by the factory. The type of arm depends on the type of cart you prefer. For moving-magnets, I’d suggest all the usual suspects which dominated as low-mass arms during MMs’ heyday, such as; Infinity Black Widow, Mas 282, Mayware Formula IV or its variants, Grace, Haddock, Mission, and the like. But, just as how MM carts are getting rarer and rarer, this applies even more in the case of the arms which suit them best. The good thing is that today’s medium-mass arms do a fairly good job with both main cartridge-types, though they’re better with MCs. The heavy-ish Ortofon AS212 is another vintage classic (more suited to MC, though passable with MM) and new or used stalwarts from Rega and Jelco are also eminently viable. After that, the sky’s the limit; starting with the Ittok ($1k, used) which was equaled by my $50 SAU2 (albeit ONLY with moving-magnets).

Much of the preceding on arms is pasted from the book mentioned in my previous post.

Incidentally, if you care more about sound-quality than pleasing potential critics, then the low-mass SAU2 (at much less than 100 bucks) could be an option, with the majority of your budget made available for the very best MM cart you can buy. Audio-snobs would never agree to this, but my own tests had proven it to be more dynamic, tighter and more realistically 'punchy' at midbass, and with a deeper response at low-bass than the SME-3009II on my own 125. (Not sure how it would compare with a TP16 on a TD125 like yours, as my own TP16 came with a TD145 - different sound, and slightly better in some ways than what I'd found with the SME on the 125). For those who'd doubt that this SAU2 arm is competetive with or better than the other arm, there are several 'testimonials,' though I can only find one at this moment, where-in the poster slightly prefers the SME while acknowledging that others would prefer the SAU2, as they're "very close." Google the Vinyl-Engine thread entitled; "Best Tonearm for TD-124?" I've also already mentioned that the SAU2 also equaled my Ittok in virtually every way that really matters (with MMs ONLY) so there's not much more that's worth saying after that.

With regard to carts for your existing Thorens arm, I’d tend to suggest that this arm is also ‘massy’ enough to do a fair job both with MMs (which are not too highly compliant) and with MCs which are not too near the other extreme. I’ve heard of Denon 103s being successfully used (with added headshell weight, in one instance). Not sure if you're prepared for MCs, though. My own experience with a Thorens 145 using the same TP16 arm tells me that all of my own carts mentioned above would work with it, more or less. So most MMs should work, though I'd avoid those with extra-ordinarily high compliance.

As far as new MMs are concerned, the moving-flux wood-body Grados like the Platinum and Sonata (just below and just above your price-range) both have a killer midrange (among the best in the business, along with Koetsu, believe it or not) and I wouldn’t fault them too much for their slightly reticent trebles, but what I found most annoying about my own Sonata was that it seemed to seek out every flaw in each record to let loose with a ‘click’ or a ‘pop.’ (If you don't mind that too much, or if your records are immaculate, then your search could stop right here with the Grado Platinum). With surface-noise, the Signet and the Shibata-tipped AT carts are much, much better in that regard – making old records sound as quiet as brand new ones, but these carts are no longer in production. (Thakker sells NOS TK7Es for around 600 Euros, BTW). And the current AT-150 I’d recommend (for lack of my preferred units like the Stanton 881, etc) is also a bit over your budget. MMs from the likes of Linn, Garrot, and Clearaudio could also be investigated – can’t remember all the details or prices out of my head.

However, another great option would be for you to buy a basically good inexpensive cart (new or used) such as a Shure 97 or a Stanton 500 and get a Jico SAS stylus for a significant upgrade in performance. See the Vinyl-Engine thread entitled "Stanton 500 Upgraded stylus recommend" for examples of this. The AT-95 is another option in that range.

Nevertheless, you really don’t have to break your neck in making any of these changes, as what you already have is very decent – even the arm. So no need to rush.Some would even argue that the TP-16 is very capable with the better MMs.

Apologies for the lengthy posts.

Cheers.

 

[Onebean]

Excellent info waj4all. Thank you for the follow up. I was excited to see you used an AT 12S in your test. I have an AT12S mounted to a Syntech S-220 that is waiting for a table. Too many projects and not enough time. I have to compliment you on the research done here. It is no small task to set up all these arms and cartridges for comparison.

 

[Guest143]

Thanks for the compliment, Onebean.

It's no big thing though, as these tests and comparisons (some of which are still ongoing) were carried out in my spare-time over many months. Moreover, they primarily served the purpose of establishing what are the best options available to me, and in their proper order of importance. Glad to know the findings can also serve as a benefit to others too.

Oh, and with the AT-12S, you're in for a treat. Even though the Signet is my current favourite, I also absolutely adore the AT which I find very quiet in the grooves and much more dynamic than the Shure V15 range which I'd always considered my benchmark for the minimum performance acceptable from a 'front-line' cart.

Cheers

 

[E-Stat]

I've owned both the Lenco and the Ariston. As others have said, I find the tonearm as critical or more critical. I purchased the Ariston without one and used a couple different arms (SME, Grace 714, Souther TQ-1) with it over the years.

While there are many today who like the Lenco turntable itself, the arm is not particularly special.

 

[cafe latte]

TL;DR -> Go for the TD-125 mk-II. No question about it.

I don't know too much about the Ariston RD11 except that it was technically an intermediate stage between the suspended AR's/Thorens TD-150 and the Linn Sondek LP12, so I'll let others speak for it.

I spent quite a lot of time and substantial $$ in rebuilding my L75, including a complete overhaul and a new Ortofon AS-212 tonearm. The only thing it's missing is a DIY heavy plinth - which, IMO will not make it what I want it to be. I have a rebuilt TD-124 in a modest stock plinth and I'd expect my heavily invested L75 idler to come close - but it never will. To be honest, I don't really get what's the Lenco fetish is all about and why this specific model had won it's own die hard community of fans or even why it has a dedicated web site. Lenco made some very mediocre turntables (some bordering junk) and by gradually stepping up the production cost, they had managed to achieve the L75 with the heavier platter and the good motor with the smart sloped variable speed shaft, but IMO they just lucked it. There's really no *soul* in the design and some of it, like that ridiculous rod the idler is mounted on or the clunky tonearm appears bog flimsy. I am aware it can be endlessly upgraded and even that some respected pillars of the community swear it can be turned into a formidable performer, but IMO that requires too much cost and attention. In any case, stock form, it doesn't come close to my all time favorite turntable, the TD-125 mk-II.

The TD-125 is a work of art and sounds accordingly. It's an ingenious design that had proven both very durable and extremely successful and it wasn't conceived as an incremental upgrade of a previous cheaper model. It was an effort by a high-end turntable maker to create the next company flag ship model to replace the formidable TD-124 - and it did. It incorporated a very advanced electronic speed control circuit (simple by today's standards but robust nonetheless), a phenomenally quiet low wattage motor and an extremely successful suspension system which consisted of a uniquely successful combination of mechanical design and lots of mass. The chassis is a massive alloy diecast and the under-chassis is sheet steel which together, separated by a 3 spring suspension system, not only countermeasures unwanted resonances but also consists a Farady's cage and protects the pickup at the end of the tonearm from any unwanted EMI. The stock TP-16 mk-i tonearm is a superb feat of engineering on it's own (albeit the clumsy appearance of the TP-60 headshell) and there aren't too many turntables out there, from that era, that were designed or executed so successfully. Numerous decades later, the TD-125 can still keep up with contemporary high-end and very expensive turntables (and it does, even here on AK). Everything about that turntable is modular, separately maintainable and easily upgradeable but in stock form it's one of the most successful out there - ever.

I see the OP has found a turntable congrats to OP good choice
I want to say in defense of the Lenco GL75 (I have a 78 and want a 75 for a project). The Lenco has good bits and frankly terrible bits. Top plate is junk it needs replacing or supporting with plinth just too flimsy. The plinth is not terrible but not good either just too resonant. The arm is not as bad as people say, but it is heavy and limited to a few carts really. The platter is fantastic but buyers beware some are warped due to dodgy castings, most are good but check platter is not going up and down (bad spindle can also cause this too though). The motor ansd idler arrangement also speed control is again one of the real great bits of the Lenco, the very thin idler wheel and quiet motor mean totally silent replay much quieter than most idlers. My Commonwealth is silent too, but it has a 35kg plinth, the Lenco is still in its stock plinth yet quiet.
Left stock which I did with my Gl78 as I wanted to keep the semi auto aspect intact, it is good for when I am tired, maybe reading so it stops when record finishes when I fall asleep Quality set up correctly on isolation footers (most dont set up arm correctly download manual) with correct compliance cart it sounds good quite enjoyable actually, but for it to become a really great turntable it needs top plate to be addressed, decent plinth and new arm, then IMO few idlers will touch it due to the superb motor and idler wheel arrangement.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

you can bet I don't like it but I didn't make this up - Lenco did. The L75 isn't unique, there's a whole series of lesser models (like the B55 which is relatively solid) with lower production costs attached to them (e.g. lighter platters, etc...) with the same design motifs. There's nothing new in the L75, just a little less corner cutting and bean counting.

Here's that ridiculous rod, which is the reason why when you change the speed and come back, you will never ever hit the exact same spot again. You think I made it up? Measure it and see for your self. It hinges on that rotten rubber mount and is unstable so the entire idler is just jiggling on the motor shaft. It's a good thing Lenco didn't put a fixed neon strobe on this turntable or half the gang at LH wouldn't be there now.

You think that tonearm is worth a lot or isn't flimsy? It's CW stub coupling is a tension wire mechanism that can't hold the tension and causes the entire back part to sag, not to mention it's impossible to fix in any other way than the dental floss/epoxy tweak. The rotting V-Block that's suppose to be the mounting surface for that knife edge bearing is another well documented caveat. Here, replaced and rewired by me:

Speaking of wiring the stock green Lenco wires are down right horrible. They are way too thick for comfort and often impede the TA lateral movement. I didn't bother with their electric properties but I'm betting it's sub-par. I just tossed them. Finally, that tonearm effective mass is at least a ton. No one knows for sure, but other than a Denon DL-103 low compliance cart, it is practically good for nothing.

How many people do you know that managed to rewire a Lenco tonearm? There's a handful even on the LH community. That's because that tonearm is such a PITA to maintain, it's easier to swap altogether.

I've actually done it, complete with a motor overhaul and plinth suspension retrofit. I've kinda been a late discoverer of the 4 deck rubber mounts disposal tweak and the getting rid of the plinth spring kit mod, but I am one of a few who can bring that POS tonearm up to it's original snuff and I've got the main bearing friction down to specs none of the LH community members would have even believed possible (I've got to find that video... stay tuned) - so don't be telling me I'm making stuff up.

Speed on mine does not drift I check it often and it stays where I put it. Also many idlers you cant adjust the speed and with main frequency no longer held as tight as it used to be being able to adjust speed is a good thing.
Arm v blocks are easy to do, arm is tricky to rewire but not impossible. The droopy stub is normally caused by transport with counter weight on the arm, no arms enjoy that, fix is effective and easy. Most old idlers now will require big servicing to sound as designed, a few other tweaks and the Lenco can become a really great turntable and are still quite cheap to buy which is why they have a following IMO. Re the arm serviced there are quite a few carts that work well in it, yes for very best performance change it but it is not as bad as some believe with correct compliance cart.
Chris

 

[Onebean]

I sure like mine Chris. If i can ever get it finished, I have a 75 with a Pete's top plate. It came with a layered Corian plinth that I epoxied together and I'm adding a pocket for an arm board to be able to swap arms. Then I'll go head to head with the stock 75 I currently use and love. It sets the standard for analog playback for me.

 

[gnuyork]

I'm loving these in favor of Lenco responses, as I have one waiting for me in NY state the next time I can make it up with a vehicle lager than a two-seat roadster.

 

[Guest143]

"While there are many today who like the Lenco turntable itself, the arm is not particularly special."
E-Stat, Today at 1:31 PM

I'd tried very hard to resist this, but I couldn't.

While I'm no particularly great fan of the Lenco arm, I'm amazed at how much this arm is undeservedly under-rated. Yes, it's as ugly as sin, but, having tested mine with its compromised V-blocks, I was still impressed with how good it was, even in its sick state. It's certainly much better than the arm on my SL1700 Techie, and I'm sure I'd much prefer it, overall, over a 3009II, as it sounds better to me, overall, with much better bass in particular. Yet, the 3009II is one of the most popular arms replacing the Lenco arm - I just can't understand that. (No offence to 3009II fans, I'm just expressing my honest opinion. YMMV. And I've already conceded that tweaking with the omission of the baseplate grommets might render better performance than I'd experienced with mine).

No, the Lenco arm is no Ittok-beater, but it's no piece of junk either. The trouble is that some of us merely join the bandwagon with folks who disparage this arm, with most of them not even testing the thing properly.

I have files on some of my favourite components, including the Lenco TT, so I'll just paste some remarks about the Lenco arm from some of those who've actually tested the thing properly - the relevant threads are linked below each remark.



".....there really aren't very many better choices than rebuilding the original arm, which is probably way, way better than most people think it is..."

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/idler-drive-turntables.117022/page-2


That's having owned one of the Lenco L-75 variants since 1986, having had them all in bits at one time or another, and having a Garrard 301/SME 3009 for a few years (and taking that to bits as well.)

I did experiment with a Linn LV X arm on one of them, but went back to the original Lenco arm. With the rubber 'v'-blocks replaced with perspex ones I made myself and the wobbly counterweight coupling defeated, it's a much better arm than many people think. High-compliance cartridges need not apply though; medium/low compliance cartridges are a better match.
…. Given an Audio-Technica AT-95E (with VTF adjusted to 3g) tracks better and sounds much better with the Lenco arm than either a Shure V15 MkIII or Shure M95 with the Linn arm (and the Garrard/SME) ever did, I have a feeling the Denon cartridge might work rather well (and the Lenco arm is maybe 'misunderstood' rather than 'awful'...)


https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59411



flavio81Turntable technician

vinyldavid said: ↑

My all-stock Lenco L75 with a Shure V15III made a vinyl mastering engineer remark that my vinyl front end sounded closer to the master tape than his Neumann lathe did.

... And this is the reason i bought new v-blocks and sold away a Linn LVX arm (direct drop-in replacement for the Lenco arm) in favor of keeping the stock arm.

I remember having to service a L78 in perfect shape, arm with perfect v-blocks and couplings. We used a Shure M75ED2 cartridge which is a high compliance cartridge and i couldn't believe how good the sound was.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/lenco-l75-what-to-do.457599/


oldrecordman
….On reassembling the turntable I switched on with the lenco arm and an ortofon 510 cartridge.

TOTAL AMAZEMENT !! not only had the hum completely disappeared but the sound quality was unbelieveable. The Stereo image was ouit of this world, and was so vivid a nd 3 dimensional, it was as if I had the singers and orchestra playing live in the room. Highs midrange and low base was extrodinary....

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5337.0


Last night I did some comparisons with the GL75. It made me realize that the arm is not the piece of junk that people claim it is. And a completely standard GL75 with a decent cartridge is a very capable deck. I found very little difference between the standard GL75 and some serious turntables I compared it with. If the cartridges had been the same there might have been no difference!

http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/lenco-gl75-vs-thorens-td-124.78985/page-2


From what I have heard, a stock Lenco 75, with stock arm (new v-block bearings) in stock box plinth is nearly as good as a stock Lenco with Rega250 arm, unmodded, with the same Goldring cartridge and amp and speakers.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=32709&start=36

 

[cafe latte]

I sure like mine Chris. If i can ever get it finished, I have a 75 with a Pete's top plate. It came with a layered Corian plinth that I epoxied together and I'm adding a pocket for an arm board to be able to swap arms. Then I'll go head to head with the stock 75 I currently use and love. It sets the standard for analog playback for me.

Do you have a link for the top plate? Thinking though to make my own, depends on what a finished one costs.
Cheers
Chris

 

[vintagegroov]

Here's the cartridge the Thorens came with, it's a Grado. I'm not sure what year or model number/type it is. If anyone can identify it that would be great. All I can say is when I heard the TT hooked up at the seller's place all my albums sounded great. But I haven't yet heard it hooked up to my gear.

 

[Guest143]

1. Re the stock tone arm; what recommendations do you have for some good stylus? Say a range from affordable with good quality sound up to a higher price, but still reasonable level (like $500 or less)?
   
   vintagegroov, Yesterday at 5:57 PMReport
   #23
   
   Not sure which Grado that is, but if you like the sound of that, then you'll absolutely love the sound of the Grado Platinum I'd recommended in a previous post, in response the question you'd asked me.

 

[vintagegroov]

I believe the cartridge on the Thorens is a Grado 1791X Turntable Phono Cartridge White.

Some things have happened since my last post. The Lenco L75 that was for sale around the time I bought the Thorens was available again, and for too good a price to pass up, so I picked it up. The unit was rebuilt, platter balanced, placed inside a very large wood plinth, original arm, and the stylus is a Nagaoka MP-110.

Now after a long wait the remainder of my gear has been upgraded and was ready for testing the turntables. First up was the Thorens.

There was some constant buzz or hum, my audio friend thinks it's one of the wires out the back. He did what he could but the sound just didn't go away. Next issue was the cartridge; it sounds good, but the volume needs to be cranked to 60% to match my other TT that only needs around 35% volume. My friend said some MM cartridges need more volume than others and need to be matched with the amp/receiver. This particular one seems to need almost double the volume as all the other ones we tested previously.

Once the volume was there the sound was quite good, detailed, better than my cheaper Asian turntable I was using, and that one actually sounds pretty good too. Suffice it to say I wasn't too happy about the wire buzzing and high volume required for just normal sound levels. We tried to swap other cartridges he had, but the Thorens head shell wouldn't match up to them, so back to square one.

Next up was the Lenco. Placed the platter on and started it up, really heavy rumble sound which was alarming, and then the track starts and it's really slow. We rechecked the platter and adjusted the speed lever, and with a phone app we were able to get the platter up to the right speed.

Played the track again, sounded...lifeless. The voice and instruments were there, but the life the song had on the Thorens just wasn't there. Thankfully we fiddled with the Lenco some more, this time the arm, and we put the album back on.

This time around the rumble or hum noise was far less, but still there. We put the original album back on and this time the music livened up, sounded good, and it had a nice wide sound stage. There was some punch with the instruments we hadn't heard on the Thorens. We then listened to tracks from some albums he had, one with female vocals, jazz, etc. They all sounded good.

I had brought my 1971 The Yes Album as well, and we put that on. Here things got interesting. I'm very familiar with this album and about a minute into the track Chris Squire's bass really kicks in. Well it kicked in hard, right up front and with a nice knarly sound. Wow, ok, this is new and we ended up listening to the entire side of the album. Good detail and presence with each song.

We put in the Thorens back again and put the Yes album on, it was ok, but the bass and such lost their presence, the punch from the instruments just wasn't there as it was with the Lenco.

We'd spent a few hours already doing this and talking, so he said to leave the TTs with him, he'll work on the Lenco to see if he can pinpoint the hum or rumble. The Thorens needs some work on the wires but I have no desire at this point to find and buy a cartridge that will be affordable and do it justice. My budget for this project is done.

I won't say the Thorens isn't a match for the Lenco (when it got playing right), I'd need maybe the same cartridges on both. The Thorens, minus the wire buzz, was quieter.

I fail to believe the Lenco can't be made quieter, there are tons of people with stock and modified Lenco L75's, and if it did buzz or rumble during the quiet spots between songs people wouldn't be using them.

So the journey continues. Once I get the gear home I'll post some pictures.

 

[fiddlefye]

I believe the cartridge on the Thorens is a Grado 1791X Turntable Phono Cartridge White.

Some things have happened since my last post. The Lenco L75 that was for sale around the time I bought the Thorens was available again, and for too good a price to pass up, so I picked it up. The unit was rebuilt, platter balanced, placed inside a very large wood plinth, original arm, and the stylus is a Nagaoka MP-110.

Now after a long wait the remainder of my gear has been upgraded and was ready for testing the turntables. First up was the Thorens.

There was some constant buzz or hum, my audio friend thinks it's one of the wires out the back. He did what he could but the sound just didn't go away. Next issue was the cartridge; it sounds good, but the volume needs to be cranked to 60% to match my other TT that only needs around 35% volume. My friend said some MM cartridges need more volume than others and need to be matched with the amp/receiver. This particular one seems to need almost double the volume as all the other ones we tested previously.

Once the volume was there the sound was quite good, detailed, better than my cheaper Asian turntable I was using, and that one actually sounds pretty good too. Suffice it to say I wasn't too happy about the wire buzzing and high volume required for just normal sound levels. We tried to swap other cartridges he had, but the Thorens head shell wouldn't match up to them, so back to square one.

Next up was the Lenco. Placed the platter on and started it up, really heavy rumble sound which was alarming, and then the track starts and it's really slow. We rechecked the platter and adjusted the speed lever, and with a phone app we were able to get the platter up to the right speed.

Played the track again, sounded...lifeless. The voice and instruments were there, but the life the song had on the Thorens just wasn't there. Thankfully we fiddled with the Lenco some more, this time the arm, and we put the album back on.

This time around the rumble or hum noise was far less, but still there. We put the original album back on and this time the music livened up, sounded good, and it had a nice wide sound stage. There was some punch with the instruments we hadn't heard on the Thorens. We then listened to tracks from some albums he had, one with female vocals, jazz, etc. They all sounded good.

I had brought my 1971 The Yes Album as well, and we put that on. Here things got interesting. I'm very familiar with this album and about a minute into the track Chris Squire's bass really kicks in. Well it kicked in hard, right up front and with a nice knarly sound. Wow, ok, this is new and we ended up listening to the entire side of the album. Good detail and presence with each song.

We put in the Thorens back again and put the Yes album on, it was ok, but the bass and such lost their presence, the punch from the instruments just wasn't there as it was with the Lenco.

We'd spent a few hours already doing this and talking, so he said to leave the TTs with him, he'll work on the Lenco to see if he can pinpoint the hum or rumble. The Thorens needs some work on the wires but I have no desire at this point to find and buy a cartridge that will be affordable and do it justice. My budget for this project is done.

I won't say the Thorens isn't a match for the Lenco (when it got playing right), I'd need maybe the same cartridges on both. The Thorens, minus the wire buzz, was quieter.

I fail to believe the Lenco can't be made quieter, there are tons of people with stock and modified Lenco L75's, and if it did buzz or rumble during the quiet spots between songs people wouldn't be using them.

So the journey continues. Once I get the gear home I'll post some pictures.

Your comment with regard to the TD-125 and a lack of clean bass would indicate to me that the suspension needs some work. My experience at any rate.

 

[vintagegroov]

Stereo is finally all setup with the Lenco. It sounds really good. Thorens is set aside for now.

 

[bimasta]

Your comment with regard to the TD-125 and a lack of clean bass would indicate to me that the suspension needs some work. My experience at any rate.

Best bass I ever heard from a Thorens was after removing the suspension.

 

[timmy.timmy]

I believe the cartridge on the Thorens is a Grado 1791X Turntable Phono Cartridge White.

...First up was the Thorens. There was some constant buzz or hum, my audio friend thinks it's one of the wires out the back. He did what he could but the sound just didn't go away. Next issue was the cartridge; it sounds good, but the volume needs to be cranked to 60% to match my other TT that only needs around 35% volume. My friend said some MM cartridges need more volume than others and need to be matched with the amp/receiver. This particular one seems to need almost double the volume as all the other ones we tested previously...

A buzz indicate mass issue. A hum indicate either a ground loop or could comes from the fact that your amp volume is "cranked-up". Those Grado MI cartridges are something else. I personally don't favor them, but I must admit I find them intriguing and enjoy when I listen to one. Couldn't find the output mV specs for yours but they have marketed some models with fairly low output values. The preamp "match" (or adjustments if ever) is indeed of importance. And the fact that you need to push up the volume on your amp will take it further up into "distortion" likely. Do you hear the difference in that ?

Next up was the Lenco... ...This time around the rumble or hum noise was far less, but still there. We put the original album back on and this time the music livened up, sounded good, and it had a nice wide sound stage. There was some punch with the instruments we hadn't heard on the Thorens. We then listened to tracks from some albums he had, one with female vocals, jazz, etc. They all sounded good... ...We put in the Thorens back again and put the Yes album on, it was ok, but the bass and such lost their presence, the punch from the instruments just wasn't there as it was with the Lenco... ...The Thorens needs some work on the wires but I have no desire at this point to find and buy a cartridge that will be affordable and do it justice. My budget for this project is done.

Rumble can be cause by the idler driven mechanism. But it is different than any hum issue. Surely those idler driven will give more "attack" to the sound. It's typical of the idler dive turntables. Personally I prefer the belt driven turntables but speed accuracy and constancy needs to be corrected constantly. I did that with an expensive but most rewarding last major upgrade on my DIY'ed tweaked Thorens TD160 'E' with a Phoenix Eng. external PSU & tachometer combo. I don't know if the Thorens TD125 speed controller is capable of equal performance... But since, my bass are tighter than ever.

Odd as it may seems, even though I did read that with better speed accuracy only bass do become tighter and so I have indeed experienced it; more "real" and noticeable instead of "flappy" and "muddy". The Grado cartridge could be also partly responsible in that dynamic difference between the TD125 and the L75, and to do the Thorens justice, I think another cartridge trial should be done as well. But I hear you're momently settled down with the Lenco and you are now in no position to put more time and money in the Thorens project at this stage. And maybe foresee some Lenco upgrades later...

So the journey continues. Once I get the gear home I'll post some pictures.