Lenco L75 or Ariston Audio RD11s or Thorens TD125 mk2?

[vintagegroov]

I'm finally at a point with my stereo that I want to get a nice, older turntable. My 3 favorites at this point are:

Lenco L75
Ariston Audio RD11s
Thorens TD125 mk2

I've had a chance to check out a Lenco L75 that was mostly stock with an upgraded, heavier platter and much denser, heavier plinth. But if this one isn't available I will have access to buy a mostly stock Lenco L75.

Then I had a chance to check out a Thorens TD125 mk2 TT as well, this one almost completely stock. I may also try out an AA RD11s if so required.

Now as nice as these TT are, I keep reading that to really get the most out of them, that one should upgrade the tone arm and cartridge, and also the plinth if possible.

But of these 3 TT which one could stand on it's own with no upgrades or changes, except just a new stylus? I don't mind having a TT that can have tons of upgrades, but I prefer to get one that is already quite outstanding, and if I so choose to tweak it I can.

I'm also open to other TT suggestions in this ballpark, and I prefer TT that were out no later than the early 80s.

 

[tnsilver]

But of these 3 TT which one could stand on it's own with no upgrades or changes, except just a new stylus?

TL;DR -> Go for the TD-125 mk-II. No question about it.

I don't know too much about the Ariston RD11 except that it was technically an intermediate stage between the suspended AR's/Thorens TD-150 and the Linn Sondek LP12, so I'll let others speak for it.

I spent quite a lot of time and substantial $$ in rebuilding my L75, including a complete overhaul and a new Ortofon AS-212 tonearm. The only thing it's missing is a DIY heavy plinth - which, IMO will not make it what I want it to be. I have a rebuilt TD-124 in a modest stock plinth and I'd expect my heavily invested L75 idler to come close - but it never will. To be honest, I don't really get what's the Lenco fetish is all about and why this specific model had won it's own die hard community of fans or even why it has a dedicated web site. Lenco made some very mediocre turntables (some bordering junk) and by gradually stepping up the production cost, they had managed to achieve the L75 with the heavier platter and the good motor with the smart sloped variable speed shaft, but IMO they just lucked it. There's really no *soul* in the design and some of it, like that ridiculous rod the idler is mounted on or the clunky tonearm appears bog flimsy. I am aware it can be endlessly upgraded and even that some respected pillars of the community swear it can be turned into a formidable performer, but IMO that requires too much cost and attention. In any case, stock form, it doesn't come close to my all time favorite turntable, the TD-125 mk-II.

The TD-125 is a work of art and sounds accordingly. It's an ingenious design that had proven both very durable and extremely successful and it wasn't conceived as an incremental upgrade of a previous cheaper model. It was an effort by a high-end turntable maker to create the next company flag ship model to replace the formidable TD-124 - and it did. It incorporated a very advanced electronic speed control circuit (simple by today's standards but robust nonetheless), a phenomenally quiet low wattage motor and an extremely successful suspension system which consisted of a uniquely successful combination of mechanical design and lots of mass. The chassis is a massive alloy diecast and the under-chassis is sheet steel which together, separated by a 3 spring suspension system, not only countermeasures unwanted resonances but also consists a Farady's cage and protects the pickup at the end of the tonearm from any unwanted EMI. The stock TP-16 mk-i tonearm is a superb feat of engineering on it's own (albeit the clumsy appearance of the TP-60 headshell) and there aren't too many turntables out there, from that era, that were designed or executed so successfully. Numerous decades later, the TD-125 can still keep up with contemporary high-end and very expensive turntables (and it does, even here on AK). Everything about that turntable is modular, separately maintainable and easily upgradeable but in stock form it's one of the most successful out there - ever.

 

[vintagegroov]

TL;DR -> Go for the TD-125 mk-II. No question about it.

Thanks for that detailed info. I too wonder why a Lenco requires so many tweaks and changes to get it to a good state. Nothing wrong with people wanting to work on their TT, but I prefer a TT that's pretty much 'there', but still has room for updates later.

 

[Kim G]

Hands down the Lenco. I have a Thorens TD 125 MK II also and it is a very nice table, but it sits idle. Never had the Ariston but almost got one on ebay once a long time ago ( doesn't count I know but I researched it pretty hard before getting the 125 ). My 125 didn't come with the stock arm so I can't compare it to a stock armed Lenco L75 ( which I have ) and I can't prove that the stock arm would be better or worse than the arm I have on the 125. The stock Lenco smoked the 125, no tweaks to get it to a good state as you have suggested. It is there. Stock. Some people get it and some don't. That's why we're different. Have you ever heard a stock Lenco? A stock 125? I guess I just prefer idler drives to belt drives. Yes you can go hard core on a Lenco and have great results, why do you think there is a website called Lenco Heaven? I don't know if there is a Thorens TD 125 Heaven website or something similar, I've never checked. If you prefer a belt drive over an idler you can't go wrong with the 125, arm swaps are easy. I'm lucky in that I have a fairly nice woodshop, and I'm retired so at least one more Lenco and a Thorens TD 124 MK I are waiting for their turn in the custom plinth line up. Good luck in you quest, a new table to play with is always great fun. To answer your question, they all can stand on their own. Which one would sound better will always be debated.

 

[fiddlefye]

I have both the TD-125 and the Ariston RD11S and they are both really nice tables. The key to both is choice of arm and doing a really good job on suspension set-up. I just finished a restoration on my 125 and it is sounding magnificent. With the Thorens do be aware that with either the MkI or MkII if the speed control board hasn't as yet been recapped and adjusted it should be as the caps will be at the least at the end of their useful life, if not beyond.

 

[Onebean]

I'll chime in with no experience with the Thorens or the Ariston. I own 2 Lenco L75's. One is getting a new plinth and Pete's top plate, the other is bone stock. I haven't heard the Pete's top plate Lenco yet, still in process. My current turntable is a bone stock L75 with the stock tonearm and a Denon 103. This table is killer! The only thing I did was replace the rubber vee block rests and mount / align the used Denon (I picked it up for $125). I have had the opportunity to demo some super high end turntables costing upwards of $20,000 with arm and cartridge. My stock L75 sounded easily as good or better for less that $700. I don't own a Thorens125, but if tnsilver is correct, don't walk, run to buy it. If your goal is a good sounding turntable, a dialed in L75 will make you listen to your whole record collection, maybe the Thorens 125 will do the same. Heck, I'd buy both given the situation, and see for yourself. It's not like you can't flip the one you don't like as much. Make sure you understand cartridge to tonearm matching for either table, it probably has as much or more to do with how these tables sound. Then focus on cartridge alignment. Good luck, make sure to report back on your decision and results.

Onebean

 

[sachu888]

Lenco L75, make a new layred plinth, template available on Lencoheaven, and change the stock tonearm. It's a very simple machine to work.
Here is my Lenco with custom plinth and DIY Schroeder clone tonearm.

Regards
Sachin

 

[bimasta]

Go for the TD-125 mk-II. No question about it.

Total agreement with Tnsilver. I got my first 125/II thirty years ago, and several since then. I lusted for a Linn LP12, finally got one, and preferred the Thorens. I also had an Ariston, though not the same model, and it was exceptional.

 

[muovimies]

Lenco made some very mediocre turntables (some bordering junk) and by gradually stepping up the production cost, they had managed to achieve the L75 with the heavier platter and the good motor with the smart sloped variable speed shaft, but IMO they just lucked it. There's really no *soul* in the design and some of it, like that ridiculous rod the idler is mounted on or the clunky tonearm appears bog flimsy.

Come on you don't have to like it, but you are just making stuff up.

 

[tnsilver]

Come on you don't have to like it, but you are just making stuff up.

you can bet I don't like it but I didn't make this up - Lenco did. The L75 isn't unique, there's a whole series of lesser models (like the B55 which is relatively solid) with lower production costs attached to them (e.g. lighter platters, etc...) with the same design motifs. There's nothing new in the L75, just a little less corner cutting and bean counting.

Here's that ridiculous rod, which is the reason why when you change the speed and come back, you will never ever hit the exact same spot again. You think I made it up? Measure it and see for your self. It hinges on that rotten rubber mount and is unstable so the entire idler is just jiggling on the motor shaft. It's a good thing Lenco didn't put a fixed neon strobe on this turntable or half the gang at LH wouldn't be there now.

You think that tonearm is worth a lot or isn't flimsy? It's CW stub coupling is a tension wire mechanism that can't hold the tension and causes the entire back part to sag, not to mention it's impossible to fix in any other way than the dental floss/epoxy tweak. The rotting V-Block that's suppose to be the mounting surface for that knife edge bearing is another well documented caveat. Here, replaced and rewired by me:

Speaking of wiring the stock green Lenco wires are down right horrible. They are way too thick for comfort and often impede the TA lateral movement. I didn't bother with their electric properties but I'm betting it's sub-par. I just tossed them. Finally, that tonearm effective mass is at least a ton. No one knows for sure, but other than a Denon DL-103 low compliance cart, it is practically good for nothing.

How many people do you know that managed to rewire a Lenco tonearm? There's a handful even on the LH community. That's because that tonearm is such a PITA to maintain, it's easier to swap altogether.

I've actually done it, complete with a motor overhaul and plinth suspension retrofit. I've kinda been a late discoverer of the 4 deck rubber mounts disposal tweak and the getting rid of the plinth spring kit mod, but I am one of a few who can bring that POS tonearm up to it's original snuff and I've got the main bearing friction down to specs none of the LH community members would have even believed possible (I've got to find that video... stay tuned) - so don't be telling me I'm making stuff up.

 

[Onebean]

Intersting post Tom. What did you do with this table after all the work you put into it? Can you describe the difference in sound quality between the L75 and the 125? Did you use a Denon 103 on the Lenco? What arm and cartridge on the 125? I feel like my ear is pretty sensitive to pitch change, but maybe not.

 

[muovimies]

you can bet I don't like it but I didn't make this up - Lenco did. The L75 isn't unique, there's a whole series of lesser models (like the B55 which is relatively solid) with lower production costs attached to them (e.g. lighter platters, etc...) with the same design motifs. There's nothing new in the L75, just a little less corner cutting and bean counting.

It was the 1959 L70 which was the first Lenco with that exact drive system. It was a heavy platter model similar to the L-75 but with a different tonearm. The small platter models with that drive system came later, so it was the opposite - first was the L70 and the lesser models were introduced based on that. L-75 was introduced sometime in the mid-to-late 60s and replaced the L70. The older Lencos from the earlier 50s had similar vertical drive system, but the motor was situated on the right side and the idler arm was of different design. Never seen one in person, so can't really comment much on them. Anyway, when you come up with your own alternative history for the Lenco models and claim things like they "lucked on" the design and it has "no soul", how is that anything other than you making up stuff?

As for that idler arm, while there is no neon strobe, but the L-75 came standard with a strobe disc, at least I assume so because they seem to be so plentiful and both my Lencos got one. I also don't have any issues with speed consistency even after changing speeds, with one caveat - you gotta move the lever from the same direction you did when you finetuned the speed. In other words if you set the 45rpm speed after coming from 33rpm, that's the direction you need to come to it from. So yeah, it's a bit temperemental in nature when changing speeds, but once you dial it in, it stays there - and measures well. I still think it's a genius design. Also it's not "jiggling about" when it's actually in use, it's designed to perform as intended when it's locked between the motor shaft and platter.

Lenco made some good arms (or so I hear), but I don't think the L-75 tonearm seems particularly good and I gave up on it way before you did.

 

[Montycat]

I am not nearly as experienced as Tom with the Lenco (but I did have one and got rid of it) and I am not at all with the Ariston. I do have a TD-125 and even with the Thorens arm it would get my vote.

 

[tnsilver]

Like always when there's a discussion here involving my less favorite turntables, the ones that are usually put away, I was tempted to give my Lenco some quick TLC and bring it back into my main system for a listen. Honestly, I don't remember why I put it away or what it was that I didn't like about it other than having to dial in the speed too often, but it's one heck of fine turntable and I enjoyed the listen (The Temptations - All Directions - Gordy G962L / US 1972) with an Ortofon FF15XE elliptic tip dialed in at 2.0g VTF, mounted on an Ortofon AS-212 tonearm.

Papa was a rollin' stone - (if you don't know the original release LP version - you don't know it at all) was immense! Bass was very punchy, lead guitar and keyboard as lucid as day and vocals... I could swear Dennis Edwards was standing in between my speakers and when Franklin says "hey mama" with that deep voice of his, it was like the two were having a dialog in front of me. Very powerful presentation, very authoritative, very musical. Nice!!! The one odd frog I had a hard time swallowing is my perception of the music being kind of wrapped in a certain warmth, not too different than what tube gear may sometimes sound like. It wasn't bad but I just knew it wasn't in the groove and it bothered me a little.

Remember the OP was about a stock form TT shootout and this Lenco isn't stock. Here's some of the obvious and some under the hood mods:

• tonearm swapped - Ortofon AS-212 / rewired w/ Cardas 33AWG OFC litz (original cue mechanism removed for the stock Lenco cue bar).
• motor overhauled, regreased, nylatron plate replaced with teflon, reallined and lubed
• PS recapped, IEC jack installed on back for quick power cord of choice connection, Neutrik RCA jack chassis mount sockets installed for quick phono cable of choice connection.
• main bearing overhauled, bushings replaced, thrust plate removed and swapped for stainless steel + 2mm teflon (whopping performance of 48 inertial spins after shutdown w/o break)
• 4 rubber deck mounts - removed.
• plinth springs - removed, added cross beam for support inside stock plinth
• idler wheel cleaned + bushings rinsed in paint thinner and heat impregnated with 3 in 1 oil
• grounding scheme altered to discharge through mains ground
  
• added safety fuse

I was about to leave the Lenco in my main system, but then I did the A/B with the TD-125 and I just couldn't stop listening to it, so it stayed where it was. I keep swapping tonearms on the 125 but since I'm using an Ortofon VMS20E (nude elliptic @ 1.2g VTF), I opt for a low effective mass tonearm and the TP-16 IsoTrack is just perfect for that cart. Ever since the IsoTrak replaced an SME 3009 S2 (imp) with a Stanton 881S a while back, it's a constant part of the rig.

The VMS20E can extract some very fine details out of the groove and I was aware of it and also expected Papa was a rollin' stone to be more revealing this time. Indeed it was. The TD-125 is an extremely musical instrument that's very authoritative and punctual and it delivers an incredible sound stage. I pretty much had the same Edwards/Franklin "hey mama" dialog in between my speakers as with the Lenco, but the familiar bass riff was much tighter, punctuated properly, yet did not lose it's punch. The violin, the hand claps, the guitar wah-wah funkiness, the percussion, oh boy... It's like having a private show in the living room. I haven't had such fun in a while... Oh, and the extra warmth was gone leaving just what's in the groove to come out of the speakers. Yeah, OK, different and better cart - I know - but life isn't fair and I wasn't really comparing, just giving the Lenco another shot.

So what's in this baby?

• you can see the platter stack. It's there not b/c I can't afford a VPI, it's there so it stabilizes speed even more than already, so the strobe is dead steady and doesn't drift - at all
• all rubber and silicon mounts/grommets/washers had been replaced with Audio Silente (Rome) replacements
• again, IEC jack installed on back for quick power cord of choice connection, Neutrik RCA jack chassis mount sockets installed for quick connection of phono cable of choice
  
• main bearing sintered bronze bushings replaced
• all PS electronic components replaced/recapped
• speed control PCB recapped with Vishay/Roederstein MKT's, filter caps with Nichicon TVX axial EC's, stock LM709 14 pin op-amps swapped with newer 8 pin LM741 and the redundant old supporting RC network removed
• grounding scheme altered to discharge through mains ground

So, bottom line, Thorens wins (yeah, big surprise...) but not by much. The Lenco is very much enjoyable and gives a fierce fight and I may pay more attention to it from now on. I need to see what I can do with the speed not going back to what it was after changing it and maybe re-think a PTP plinth. Then again, with the TD-125 at hand, I'm not that motivated and I'm happy with both turntables as they are.

Since the OP was about TT's in stock form, I still hold the opinion that the TD-125 is a higher end deck with a much higher build quality and that the stock Thorens TP-16 is incomparable with the sub par Lenco tonearm, b/c it's just too many levels up.

 

[Onebean]

Papa was a rollin' stone Has been popping up on my Pandora lately and it’s an amazing song. Thanks for the tip on the vinyl version. I’m headed to discogs now!

 

[Montycat]

Tnsilver, when stacking outer platters on the TD-125 what do you do in the middle? That looks like stock inner bits and mat, sort of.

 

[tnsilver]

when stacking outer platters on the TD-125 what do you do in the middle?

You won't believe this Monty... I had a sub-platter machined and trimmed to fit in the middle, so there's not only two main platters, but also two sub-platters. Well... 1.7 sub-platters actually.
I think it was a Dual short spindle I JBWeld'd in the center.

Did I mention I had the entire rig balanced in a shop???

 

[Montycat]

You won't believe this Monty... I had a sub-platter machined and trimmed to fit in the middle, so there's not only two main platters, but also two sub-platters. Well... 1.7 sub-platters actually.
I think it was a Dual short spindle I JBWeld'd in the center.

Did I mention I had the entire rig balanced in a shop???

Cool. So basically a modified inner platter without bearing axle?

And you had enough height range in your tonearm too?

 

[vintagegroov]

Thanks for all the replies and stories, information and insights. I'm enjoying reading what people have and what they've done to their TT. I don't mind if people continue their discussions on this thread.

Having said that, I decided to purchase the Thorens TD 125 mk2. I reached out to 3 people that had Lencos that I wanted to take a good listen to. Two were heavily modded (massive plinths too), one was stock. The Ariston Audio RD11s TT seller wasn't available at the times I wanted to go,.

There were no responses from the Lenco sellers for a few days, but the Thorens seller had his TT setup and ready for a listen, so I ventured to his place with some LPs in tow and we got to listening.

Now I've heard these LPs on my more modest system, but from the minute the stylus dropped on the Thorens it was game over. The sound of everything was just better, more detail and more pleasant. It welcomed just sitting and listening to that entire side of the album.

I didn't feel I was missing out or that I wanted more of something, the music was just good as is. As the seller said, the TT gets out of the way and you can just enjoy the music. At this point I thought, as much as I'd like to listen to those other TT, this one does the job. I may or may not notice a big difference, as I know they are all good TT, so I don't feel I'd go wrong if I just stop at this point.

The Thorens is in really nice shape, some minor scuffs but overall a very pristine table. I like the weight, around 32 lbs. The hinges are gone, but I don't mind, I always remove the cover when I play LPs. The cover sits fine on the TT regardless.

Once I get my system all hooked up I'll post pictures of it on the stand I built.

 

[Kim G]

Congrats. A very nice table and I am sure you will enjoy it. I hope people learned from your questions. May have to blow the cobwebs off of mine and give it a workout. Thanks for posting back with the picture.