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Like a Phoenix, I rise? (Continuation from Intro)

TROUBAUDIOR

Active Member
So, if you read my (hopefully entertaining) intro post, you know that I have been dabbling in 2-channel high-end, mid-level and budget audio for nearly 40 years. I have come full circle and am ready to build a new budget-minded system.

But where was I to begin?

So much had changed! We'd gone from .wav music filed to lossless... from CDPs to music servers....from phono, aux and line inputs to Bluetooth and USB... from bi-wiring your sub to dedicated Sub outs. And don't even get me started on internet radio and streaming services! So much for the erection-inducing days of yesteryear. Viagra anyone?

Okay, so I began with a list of what useful items I had left over from the Glory Days, and what source material I wanted to enjoy moving forward. And I gave myself a budget of $1500US.

When my CAL died and the company had been sold, I replaced it with the legendary Technics A10 DVD-A / CD player thinking DVD-A would rule! LOL.

When SACD began to make a splash, I scored a great deal on a mid-level Sony SACD / CD player. thinking SACD would rule! LOL.

When I divorced, the ex wanted the cheap-ass HT system. Good riddance. But she hated the loud, thundering bass and passed on the 12" powered Sony sub. Apparently to her, it wasn't all about the bass, 'bout the bass, 'bout the bass. I was able to hide the DVD-A and SACD players in the divorce, and subsequently, all 3 items...the 2 digital players and the sub went into storage for 2 decades, waiting for someone to show them some love again. That time had come.

I knew I wanted to use these 3 components in my system (since I had a collection of over 500 CDs, DVD-As and SACDs), and because budget was paramount. But, I also wanted to be able to listen to my hundreds of MP3 downloads stored on my laptop and phone. And I knew I wanted to enjoy the occassional streaming music service. But all those years in the "high-end" (note...no twitch now), had given me the (in?)famous "golden ears". I could easily tell that MP3 files and free, streaming music sites sounded terrible! So I knew that if I was going to listen to my MP3s and streaming internet radio through a new system, I was going to have to improve their sound so that I could live with it.

I decided to spend the majority of my $1500US on speakers and amplification, breaking up the rest between a table and DAC for downloads/streaming. I knew that this time, I wanted vinyl, even if it was entry-level. And if possible, I wanted some tubes in my system. I knew it was a tall order for $1500US, but I was also pleasantly surprised at how, um... accessible... tubes, vinyl and even DACs had become for every day music enthusiasts! Seemed even the non-audiophiles were picking up on what sounded good! So maybe $1500US was not unreasonable, I thought! And I knew for sure that if I spent more than a reasonable amount on high-resolution components, my AN would take over and the vicious cycle would begin again.

The struggle is real. LOL.

So, in the last 6 months, I've re-emerged as a "budget audiophile". I picked up a Dayton Audio integrated amp for $200 - a solid state power amp with a tube pre, along with all the inputs for phono, line levels, bluetooth, USB & sub. Then, I tepidly began visiting high end audio shops. But where were they? The times they are a changin. The high-end audio store landscape was dessimated. Where once there stood a 30-year business now stood a sub shop. Another was a gym. And yet a third had converted completed to mid-level HT gear – Jamo being their "premier" line. I was just about to give up on finding worthy speakers in my budget when a chance visit with an old audiophile friend introduced me to the PSB Alpha P5s. For the first time in nearly 2 decades, I felt something while listening to Fiona Apple's "Slow Like Honey"!! LOL. It was the same feeling I felt years earlier upon discovering the Spicas! I made my second purchase. I then turned my attention to a turntable, and I almost bit on an entry-level Pro-ject. But when emails went unanswered, I turned my attention to U-Turn. They listened to my goals and suggested their entry-level table with basic AT cartridge. Purchase #3 was complete. Lastly, I began researching DACs and almost settled on the AQ Dragonfly but - like the DA amp - I decided to take a chance on a relatively unknown Topping DAC for half the cost. The DAC would handle the MP3s and streaming music coming from a spare laptop. The divorce attorneys didn't even think about cabling, so I was able to retain all of the quality cabling from NBS, AQ and Kimber to use throughout. In the last 6 months and in anticipation of The Big Vinyl Moment, I began purchasing vinyl from local record shops. And oh what fun my 19-year old special needs son and I have looking at all the album covers! That smell of vinyl upon entering the shop! That experience alone has almost been worth the price of the turntable!

With vinyl, my intent was to not duplicate my digital collection. My first purchase was a new, 180g copy of Fleetwood Mac Rumours (of course). I followed that up with new copies of Lennon's Imagine, Toto's Live In Amsterdam and Beck's heartwrenching Sea Change. From the used bin, I scored mint copies of AWB, Peggy Lee, Boz Scaggs, Robert Plant, Alan Parsons and Van Morrison. And this is only the beginning.

I got rid of the "guest" bedroom that was never used and turned it into my listening room "sanctuary". The room is approximately 12x12x8 with the P5s four feet from the wall behind them and spaced about 6 feet apart. I'm sitting equidistant from them in an old-fasioned rocking chair (fitting, eh?). The speakers are on spikes, sitting on 2 ft stands. The speakers are angled upwards and toed in 10 degrees or so. The tweeter (which in the P5 sits below the woofer) is pointing directly at my ears. The rack is in the corner of the room behind me to my right. There is no other furniture in the room.

So, my first listening impression? Viagra anyone?

Seriously, I was underwhelmed. I took a deep breath and gave the system a week to burn in. It slowly improved. But after a week, something still sounded..."constricted". At this point, I had not yet pulled the sub from storage, and I almost didn't bother. Dejected, I pulled the sub out, cleaned it up, hooked it up and listened again. And this time?

Boooiiiiing!!!! And with no pill!!

The veil lifted from the midrange, and the highs sweet as a songbird! Imaging snapped into focus as did the soundstage. I could suddenly FEEL Beck's anguish on vinyl! And on the Fiona CD I stole....er, borrowed....from my friend, I felt like I needed a cigarette after listening to her very breathy, very sulty voice on "Slow Like Honey". And this time, on MY system.

Is my system perfect? Heck no. Here are the problems I'm immediately noticing....

There is that proverbial hum in the phono stage (by all accounts probably at 60Hz). It was audibly present with no signal at around 11 o'clock on my volume dial BEFORE the sub was in line. After the sub, the hum becomes audible at around 2 o'clock. I'm still working on eliminating the hum: I've troubleshooted and ruled out the turntable (tried diff one), interconnects, grounding or the power conditioner. I am reluctant to replace an essentially brand new cartridge, but I may just do that next. The table came standard with a $40 (?) AT cartridge that only delivers 2.5mV or so of output. So output level on vinyl is very, very low, in addition to the hum. If a new cartridge does not improve the hum and/or the output level of my vinyl, then I suspect the phono section of the amp is the culprit. I can almost live with the hum if I can improve the output level.

Secondly, the amp clicks on and off, almost as if there is a fan in it. I don't ever recall hearing a sound like this with ANY amp I've previously owned, including the Threshold T-200 which doubled as a space-heater. If cooling fans existed, they were inaudible. In the DA amp now, I can hear the "fan-like" sound during quiet passages of music or if a song comes to an abrupt end. It clicks on and off depending on whether a signal is present or not. While I don't necessarily hear it while music is playing, it's much louder than the hum. I'm also concerned that it could be an indication that I'm driving the amp too hard?

Thirdly, the amp is rated 50 wpc at 4 ohms. Yeah, I know...4 ohms. Not standard measurment reporting, right? My ADHD (LOL) made me miss that little nugget, so I suspect the amp probably puts out more like 35-40 at 8 ohms, where the P5s are nominally rated. And the PSB Alpha P5's sensitivity is also not the greatest at 89dB so that's not helping either. I think the amp might be struggling?

Fourthly, while the sub is still alive and kicking after 20 or so years, it's definitely a weak link. I prefer my subwoofer to be non-existent until really needed, and then, I want my bass quick and taut. I think the low frequencies can be improved immensely, but replacing the sub over the first 3 previous issues would be giving in to my AN. The mediocre bass is not a priority...yet. LOL.

So, at $950US spent so far, I still have about $550US in my budget, maybe even a few hundred beyond that. My internal debate at the moment is do I spend $100 on an Ortofon Red with 5.5mV of output? Or, do I live with the AT cartridge and put the $100 toward a new, better quality, more powerful amp? I have been researching amps and truthfully, the choices at $500-$700 are slim...very. I've relaxed my requirements from all tube to hybrid to even all solid state if the amp "speaks" to me like the Threshold (which retailed for about $5k new). LOL. Right now, the leading contender in the amp race is a first or second generation Rogue Sphinx, although I've not ever heard the amp, yet.

Any suggestions, opinions, recommendations with the amp, cartridge or otherwise are welcomed!!!

In the meantime, the twitch is in check, the family unit in tact, and I'm back in Rebecca's good graces. Smile wide; toe tapping.

Thanks for reading.

Troubaudior
 
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DON’T spend your tight budget on on the Ortofon Red. If you go that way, spend the extra and get the Blue. The Red is, in my opinion, false economy and will be a waste of your time and money.
 
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DON’T spend your tight budget on on the Ortofon Red. If you go that way, spend the extra and get the Blue. The Red is, in my opinion, false economy and will be a waste of your time and money.

Thank you for your thoughts, cason. I don't know much about cartridges. The Red had a decent output level (same as the Blue I think).

What don't you like about the Red?

My Slippery Slope concern: The table was only ~ $200 so I'm leary to spend almost that much on the cartridge.
 
I was reading up on Emotiva last night. Impressive.

Maybe I missed it but I don't see any integrated amps on their offerings.
 
What phono preamp are you using? In my experience, vinyl SQ is 1/3 cartridge, 1/3 'table, and 1/3 phono preamp, the most important piece of electronics in a vinyl system.

Our ex-resident cartridge retipper, Needlestein, thought the Red was good for making the Ramones' tamer studio albums sound a bit more raw, and until he installed a tonearm damper, not much else. FWIW.
 
What phono preamp are you using? In my experience, vinyl SQ is 1/3 cartridge, 1/3 'table, and 1/3 phono preamp, the most important piece of electronics in a vinyl system.

Our ex-resident cartridge retipper, Needlestein, thought the Red was good for making the Ramones' tamer studio albums sound a bit more raw, and until he installed a tonearm damper, not much else. FWIW.

I'm just using the phono stage of my Dayton Audio integrated amp, right now. The entire amp was $200US so I'm sure it could be one of, if not, the guilty party to the hum.

Thanks for responding!

p.s. as I mentioned in my long-ass post, my biggest beef right now with the new system is the low output of the vinyl. I had forgotten how much lower phono is from line level. The cartridge that came with my table is only 2.5mV, so that is why I was considering the Red (at 5.5mV). I also read good things about the Sumiko Pearl and the Nagaoka MP-110 but they are just slightly more $ than the Red.
 
TROUBAUDIOR,
To be honest, I was probably a little harsh. By virtually all reviews, the 2M Red represents great value and most people can be very happy with it. Maybe my expectations were a bit high, but there are three things I can point out that it failed to deliver for me. First is that “shimmer” one hears with certain cymbal strikes. Also, related, the same quality of sound from the higher register of electric guitars. Secondly it failed to deliver certain details, frequently in percussion instruments, that are important to me. Finally, it did not give quite the separation between instruments that I knew from experience could be extracted from certain albums.
Those three failings, taken together, led to my disappointment in the Red.
Bob
 
TROUBAUDIOR,
To be honest, I was probably a little harsh. By virtually all reviews, the 2M Red represents great value and most people can be very happy with it. Maybe my expectations were a bit high, but there are three things I can point out that it failed to deliver for me. First is that “shimmer” one hears with certain cymbal strikes. Also, related, the same quality of sound from the higher register of electric guitars. Secondly it failed to deliver certain details, frequently in percussion instruments, that are important to me. Finally, it did not give quite the separation between instruments that I knew from experience could be extracted from certain albums.
Those three failings, taken together, led to my disappointment in the Red.
Bob

Thank you so much for your thoughts, Bob!

Curious: Have you ever heard/auditioned any cartridge in the $70-100 range (i.e., Red's range) that meet your expectations? I ask because that's my price range, if I upgrade. For me, the separation between instruments is most important of your 3 criteria.
 
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TROUBAUDIOR, given your tight-ish budget, have you considered used gear? I have managed to put together a decent system by buying used at all sorts of venues, from garage and estate sales to thrift stores.
 
TROUBAUDIOR,
In all honesty, I believe the 2M Red is the BEST cartridge in your price range and in all probability you will be very happy with it. If you find the same deficiencies I did, you can upgrade to the Blue stylus when your budget allows and keep the Red stylus as a backup (accidents do happen and cantilevers seem particularly vulnerable). The internals are the same for the Blue and Red.
Bob
 
TROUBAUDIOR, given your tight-ish budget, have you considered used gear? I have managed to put together a decent system by buying used at all sorts of venues, from garage and estate sales to thrift stores.

@Splatter Pak Yes, absolutely! That said, my mind never seems to go to venues like estate sales and garage sales. I always seem to gravitate to audiogon, ebay or trade-ins at audio shops. I need to start looking into estate and garage sales. I bet my son would have fun tagging along.

There is a used record shop 3 blocks from my home, and in the last ten years, they have started taking in used gear, reconditioning it a bit and reselling it. They had a 1st generation Rega Planar table for sale about a year ago. They were asking $300 and it looked pretty beat up. I almost bit but they wouldn't negotiate. That is probably the nicest brand I've seen there so far - most of the gear is mid-level (not that there's anything wrong with that ;)

I have a dear friend who lost her husband last year to an unexpected, massive heart attack. He and I had quickly bonded over audio. He had mid-to-high end gear from ca. 1980s perhaps? All of the names of his equipment escapes me now, but I remember being impressed enough. I had dinner with her a few weeks ago, and she asked me if I would be interested in it? I said yes. I am waiting for her to give me a date to go check it out. I told her at the very least, I could help her value iit and resell it. She also said they had a lot of duplicate vinyl from when they met and they each had a copy. Said I could have any dupes for free. I'm excited!

So what is the best way to find out about estate sales or the like?
 
TROUBAUDIOR,
In all honesty, I believe the 2M Red is the BEST cartridge in your price range and in all probability you will be very happy with it. If you find the same deficiencies I did, you can upgrade to the Blue stylus when your budget allows and keep the Red stylus as a backup (accidents do happen and cantilevers seem particularly vulnerable). The internals are the same for the Blue and Red.
Bob

Great advice. Thank you!!
 
Building upon what Splatter Pak has said, I would go to Bartertown here on AK. Must be a subscribing member, but it's a slam-dunk for great gear.

Best of luck!!
 
....what is the best way to find out about estate sales or the like?

I would type in a Google search for something like "Estate sales" adding in your local geographical area.

In my area there is a dedicated site that cobbles together all the local estate sale companies along with links to their websites and weekly sales onto one page that you can then scroll through.
 
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I would type in a Google search for something like "Estate sales" adding in your local geographical area.

know in my area there is a dedicated site that cobbles together all the local estate sale companies along with links to their websites and weekly sales onto one page that you can then scroll through.

Madonn'!! I did a quick search and stumbled on estatesales-dot-net . Quite a few going on in my metro area. Cool. May venture out this weekend. I'll probably end up getting thrown out playing tug-o-war with someone over a Scott 340B. LOL

Thank you!
 
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