Listener fatigue: Myth or reality and what is it exactly?

[JoeESP9]

IME every system made or assembled (that I've heard) will cause listener fatigue. It's merely a matter of time. The better the system (entirely subjective) the longer you can listen before something in the mind says, "I've had enough. Turn it way down or off".

 

[datafone]

I get it listening to some gear, and some systems....not my own though, i can listen to it at loud volumes for any extended time with zero fatigue. But I have spent a lot of time lowering the distortion profile of it and every component that makes up the system.

Objectionable distortions or a bright upper end is what causes fatigue for myself.

 

[similost]

I am not just talking about Auditory fatigue which is caused by listening to music loudly but the fatigue you can get from listening to music at normal levels when listening to some equipment. Why, what, where when.etc.

No different than when you're tired of hanging out in the bar all day, or no different that you're tired of eating pizza every day for a week.. or that you're tired of your kids running in and out of the door all day...

We just get burnt on stuff..


Ever hear the saying that silence is deafening?.... You can get fatigue from silence.. I've had nights to where it's so quiet out here that it is deafening, and I go turn on music because the silence is too loud...

 

[sKiZo]

Usually for me it's the little inconsistencies in what I'm hearing, be it equipment, room voicing, bad engineering on a track ... whatever. Stuff that makes your subconscious not want to fall into the music and escape for a while.

Of course, that's part of the hobby. If you're really into it, you'll do what needs doing to capture and keep your attention. Final step here was going with a tube amp and buffer - that has endless possibilities for tailoring what you hear to what you want to hear. I did a whole lotta rolling before I found what to me was perfect, and that's been a while back now.

Not saying there's still not music that will drive me nutz or just away, but that's stuff that I can just tag as crap for future reference. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

 

[bobins08]

I get listening fatigue from these situations:

1. Digital music - I don't have a great CD player and I don't like mp3s for serious listening.

2. Horn speakers. Even good Klipsch speakers tire me out.

3. Poor recordings.

4. Long listening sessions. Sometimes I listen for hours on end late into the night.

 

[Wes_in_VA]

I don't necessarily view listening fatigue as a bad thing: sometimes I'm sitting down to really *listen* to every nuance. In that case, I expect some fatigue. Heck, I get fatigue when I go to see live music, so why should my home experience be any different?
That said, I'm usually only listening for maybe 20 minutes to a couple of hours

 

[BLAH BLAH]

Too bright...too bright can also hurt the eyes...

 

[kirk57]

Now that I think about it, I don't know that I'd even want to listen to live music all day. At some point I just want silence.

 

[GuyK]

...
Strange that though, as if Male, older than 50, it's Seriously unlikely anything beyond 14khz is audible. So it's clearly lower frequency harshness of some sort.
...

I don't think this is entirely the case. I can't consciously distinguish tones above 8500hz, but this does not necessarily mean my ears are not detecting these sounds. It means they are being attenuated somehow, and if a signal is presented which has high enough amplitude I suspect it could conceivably still be heard.

I have a pair of CV D-1's that (I think) are unlistenable, and I believe it's because of the very cheap horn tweeter they have. In fact, I'm certain this is the reason because I've disconnected the tweeters in an effort to figure out why these speakers are physically painful for me to listen through, and the pain has subsided. To me, this clearly indicates the upper registers being passed at the much higher amplitudes that horns can generate are the source of discomfort in this case.

 

[fred soop]

I agree that us older folk usually cannot "hear" above 14khz but perhaps on some level our ears are still processing the sound somehow and that causes the issue. I am just speculating on this, I have no evidence to support it.

I did a simple test that may or may not be meaningful. My left ear cuts off at 7 kHz, right ear at 14 kHz. Now, a square wave is a fundamental plus odd harmonics, so a 5 kHz sine wave will have a component at 5 kHz. A 5 kHz square wave will also have a component at 15 kHz, so with no hearing above 14 kHz, I should not be able to tell the difference when switching between sine and square wave on a function generator. The result is that I can only hear a slight difference, nothing compared to the same test at a lower frequency.

 

[GuyK]

This would seem to corroborate my hypothesis that our ears are only attenuating the sounds they are receiving, not that they have become entirely non-functional above some certain frequency.

 

[SoCal Sam]

Reality to you and your ears. I find nearly all horns including classic Altec and JBL to be fatiguing and ear piercing. This goes against the tremendous and well deserved reputation these brands have earned but it is real to me.

 

[Haiderkb]

The mind is a powerful deceiver

Oh yes, I know that place. I've certainly experienced this after a day's worth of listening to product we are developing or in the old days in the Studio. And this is all without any intoxicating substances (well may be coffee).

I remember on a couple of occasions my editor (when I reviewed for HiFi World Magazine a decade or two ago) would change my perception of a product being too bright to, it has lovely crisp treble (I am paraphrasing of course). I guess we can often see the same thing quite differently. But then he was merely trying to save his advertising revenue [did I say that out loud?].

I digress(we Welsh often do). Indeed it would be interesting if you could identify in a critical sense what it is that bothers you ultimately so we can put it in a test tube and figure it out.

Haider

 

[ferninando]

its all in the mind

 

[audiodon]

My opinion.

Three things fatigue me:
1. Unnatural treble
2. Too much volume
3. Unpleasant harmonic structure

How do they happen?
Unnatural treble in reproduction systems happens from:
*Horns - particularly piezos where there is no crossover, but no matter how much taming, horns don't work for me. They just seem shouty.
*Metal dome tweeters - I can survive a Celestion SL600, but that's tamed. A KEF LS-50, not so much, unless it's pointed right at me. Off axis at all and they've lost me. The sweet spot is as small as when listening to ESL-57s.
*In the natural environment, too much sizzle, played too consistently, like from cleaned crash symbols in a highly reflective environment.

Too much volume:
Interestingly, I can tolerate a lot of volume from Class A systems or ClassA/AB when playing mostly in the class A range.
Live: Too loud is too loud and reduces my sensitivity, so in the worst case at a live concert that's too loud, I'll put toilet paper in my ears if I've forgotten my plugs.

Unpleasant harmonic structure - This might be conjecture, but I'll try:
When a manufacturer has worked too hard to get the distortion numbers very low, I think I can tell through fatigue. I'm more comfortable with gear that soft clips or has THD levels kept under 1-2% rather than working to keep it under .01%. Something happens that my ear/brain connection protests.

 

[RobInONT]

I've had speakers that I found tiring/annoying to listen to. There's also a lot of music I find annoying as well, especially highly compressed songs like Imagine Dragons' Night Visions album (geez, I wish this was available at a lower level with some DR).

I wonder if this sort of reaction to the sound has similar causes as other annoying sounds? A couple of musicologists did some research on repulsive sound and pinned down the most annoying frequencies as being between 2000-4000 hz. There's a write-up in Wired here: http://www.wired.com/2011/11/chalk-board-fingernail-sound/
They noted there was a powerful psychological component to the discomfort....people rated the sounds as "worse" when told they came from music.

 

[Haiderkb]

Isn't distortion (electrical or mechanical) in its several forms a good candidate as a source of fatigue?

Certainly. That is forming my current view. But it does also suggest that as well as good quality higher end systems there are lower end systems (like my cheap car stereo for example) have low distortion as I can listen to them for hours without fatigue. There are others of both ilk that I cannot.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

 

[Haiderkb]

I've had speakers that I found tiring/annoying to listen to. There's also a lot of music I find annoying as well, especially highly compressed songs like Imagine Dragons' Night Visions album (geez, I wish this was available at a lower level with some DR).

I wonder if this sort of reaction to the sound has similar causes as other annoying sounds? A couple of musicologists did some research on repulsive sound and pinned down the most annoying frequencies as being between 2000-4000 hz. There's a write-up in Wired here: http://www.wired.com/2011/11/chalk-board-fingernail-sound/
They noted there was a powerful psychological component to the discomfort....people rated the sounds as "worse" when told they came from music.

Thanks for that, yes indeed, I think there is a lot in that. I had seen the article and a few similar. If not directly related I am sure there is a correlation.

Haider

 

[OvenMaster]

At one time, I had a pair of Avid 110 speakers, fed by either a Pioneer SX-450 or a Technics SA-222 receiver. No matter what the source was - FM, CD, turntable - I found myself getting quite annoyed and irritable after about 30 minutes of listening. Turning off the music = turning off the irritation.

When I got my KEFs, the fatigue was still there, but I was able to listen longer, say 45-60 minutes.

Swapping out the receivers with either a Kenwood KA-3500 or my Yamaha CA-1010, I noticed no fatigue at all, even after 3-4 hours. I can only guess as to the reasons - more power? better amplification? bettery system balance/synergy? - but I'm glad the fatigue is gone.

 

[jomondz]

Funny story, might be related since I believe ARCAM is from U.K.

In the past, I was fiddling with Arcam A28, kimber Kable (white and clear speaker cable) and a pair of Polk audio monitor 5 jr.

The source to listen to is Classical FM radio.

Weird thing is, I had a bad dream from listening to this setup. Yes, a nightmare.

The sound from this amplifier doesn't sound like amplifier I generally encounter.
There is something missing from this Arcam that I never be able to explain yet.
Must be harmonic related stuff.