Listening Space Charity Case (receiver help, watts, ohms, etc.)

[Brian Bee]

Hi all

First off, I want to thank anyone willing to help. I've been looking through this entire board and it's a serious resource. I'm walking in here and basically asking for beginners help, help I'm sure many others have asked for before.

I have read a half dozen explanations about "How much power do I need in a receiver?" I still don't quite understand it, but I'm sure there's resources here I haven't found yet and that's a simple enough google search.

I'll just get right to it-
I have a large space I'd like to fill with sound. It's an attic current being converted to a communal space for a possible BnB. I think it's approximately 1000+ square feet and there's a vaulted ceiling that probably goes over 15 feet.
There is one standard wall in the middle of the room, but the top stops at c.7 or 8 feet, so there's plenty of clearance for sound to travel through the whole space. Wood floors and sheetrock. It's spray foamed underneath, so it's most outside noise is deadened.

I'm looking at vintage receivers. Style definitely comes into play (again, it's going to be a social space) but obviously more than the "look", I want something simple and functional.
I grew up with my father's Marantz system without really understanding how nice it was. My ears and eyes are better now. =)

I was looking at old Yamaha's. I'm open to almost anything, even a newer one, but it needs to have at least 4 speakers outputs and really, I want it to fill the room. And this is where I still get confused. The older receivers are all lower watts than their new cousins, but seem much better built and have better numbers in other areas.

Was looking at this on CL to buy

Mint condition 1977 Yamaha Stereo Amplifier CA-410 II 30 watts per channel
Mint condition 1977 Yamaha Stereo receiver NFB PLL MRX -610 II
VECTOR RESEARCH 1987 VSP - 82 Speakers up to 50 watts 19" h X 11" w

also this

2x Polk Audio 5A Studio Monitors (1979-84)
Denon PMA-560 Amp (1990-91)


Very different, I know. The Denon is simple and understated and sound is more important to me than anything.
I'd like to hook up a turntable and a streaming device (chromecast, etc. ) so I don't need a ton of inputs there. A tuner would be nice.

I get the impression these arent big enough systems.

Long post, but in short, I'd appreciate some direction on what to look for to fill such a big space.

I'd also be happy to chat with someone over email if that's easier.

Thank you, Audio Karma! I'll go back to reading in the shadows now.

 

[darkblue94]

The older receivers are all lower watts than their new cousins,

You're obviously not familiar with the "receiver wars" of yesteryear when manufacturers were engaged in one-upmanship and cranking out powerhouses of 150-250 watts and more. No worries though, you don't want or need any of those.

 

[blownsi]

Can you be more specific about your goal of filling it with sound? Are you wanting to fill it like a department store plays background music or to put on a demo of a 2 channel setup which can be heard throughout? Everyone will have a different opinion on this but I wouldn't go vintage at all. I would either: 1) buy a budget PA setup so that you can host a live act or karaoke, make announcements, etc. or 2) Use an amp like a crown to drive multiple ceiling speakers in mono to broadcast background music throughout.

 

[Brian Bee]

You're obviously not familiar with the "receiver wars" of yesteryear when manufacturers were engaged in one-upmanship and cranking out powerhouses of 150-250 watts and more. No worries though, you don't want or need any of those.

You are correct! =) That is most likely before my time. I love a good tech arms race though.

From my understanding, it couldn't hurt to have a high watt receiver. I'd rather have one and upgrade my speakers gradually than be underpowered and have to start over.

 

[Brian Bee]

Can you be more specific about your goal of filling it with sound? Are you wanting to fill it like a department store plays background music or to put on a demo of a 2 channel setup which can be heard throughout? Everyone will have a different opinion on this but I wouldn't go vintage at all. I would either: 1) buy a budget PA setup so that you can host a live act or karaoke, make announcements, etc. or 2) Use an amp like a crown to drive multiple ceiling speakers in mono to broadcast background music throughout.

I hear you, actually considered using a PA (because I need a portable one anyways for dj work) but there is a lifestyle aspect to this. The space is going to be beautiful. I'm not just interested in a super cool, vintage blinky box!, which is why I'm open to newer set ups. But the look of set up does matter here.

Re: your question about sound- yes, some full sounding, medium level music is going to be the norm. But I need to be able to crank it up if there's 30 people up there who want to dance and I feel like hooking my turntables up. =)

I'm not as concerned about the look of the speakers because they're either going to be hung from the rafters or on higher shelves. But the system that someone walks up to and turns on? Yes, looks matter a bit here.

Thank you for help!

 

[whoaru99]

If you want a "real" answer, the bottom line is you need a target for the maximum playback level you want to achieve. Simply saying "loud" or "cranked up" has wide connotations as you saw in those other threads.

Once you have the SPL target then the rest can be derived with reasonable accuracy.

 

[Brian Bee]

If you want a "real" answer, the bottom line is you have to have an idea of the maximum playback level you want to achieve. Simply saying "loud" or "cranked up" has wide connotations as you saw in those other threads.

Once you have the SPL target then the rest can be derived with reasonable accuracy.

I understand- I would guess somewhere between 75-90. I think that'd be enough to fill a large voluminous room with "a lot" of sound if need be, yes? But again, I'm not some dummy looking for loud loud loud. I'm not looking for subwoofers or anything that will distort whatever music I'm playing. Just a nice, honest sound that I can turn up if need.

I hope that clarifies things.

Thank you.

 

[Brian Bee]

A follow up to my original post- I currently have a set of bookshelf speakers that serve as my main speakers on the ground level of my house (I have several sets of satellites). They're connected to my turntables, I stream audio to them. Everything.

The attic space I'm working on is large. I want whatever goes up there to be at least as powerful as these speakers.

Power Output
150W peak power total (50W RMS / 75W peak per channel), AES

Input Voltages
115/240V, 50/60Hz manually switchable

Amplifier Type
Dual Class AB monolithic

Drivers
5″ Kevlar woofers, 3/4″ silk dome tweeters

SNR
>95dB (typical A-weighted)

THD+N
<0.05% at all power settings

Crosstalk
-50dB

Frequency response
50Hz-22kHz ±1.5dB

Input impedance
10K ohms unbalanced

 

[toxcrusadr]

The sensitivity of your speakers will have a lot to do with how much volume you can achieve with a given number of watts. You probably want to avoid speakers with less than 90 (or even 92) db sensitivity if you're looking at the 50W and less range.

I have a pair of Klipsch kg4.2 (ca. 1992) which are 95 db. I used to run them off a Pioneer SX-780 which is rated at 45 wpc I think. Very stout heavy receiver the 780 is, which is why it's kept its value over the years. Anyway that combo would easily fill up a room like you're describing.

I don't think bookshelves are going to do it. A small woofer just can't move enough air. There's no replacement for displacement! You probably want something with either a 10-15" woofer or multiple smaller ones.

 

[Brian Bee]

The sensitivity of your speakers will have a lot to do with how much volume you can achieve with a given number of watts. You probably want to avoid speakers with less than 90 (or even 92) db sensitivity if you're looking at the 50W and less range.

I have a pair of Klipsch kg4.2 (ca. 1992) which are 95 db. I used to run them off a Pioneer SX-780 which is rated at 45 wpc I think. Very stout heavy receiver the 780 is, which is why it's kept its value over the years. Anyway that combo would easily fill up a room like you're describing.

I don't think bookshelves are going to do it. A small woofer just can't move enough air. There's no replacement for displacement! You probably want something with either a 10-15" woofer or multiple smaller ones.

i agree, bookshelves won't do it.

thank you for the suggestions...it's something for me to run with.


Also, I'm not opposed to a higher wattage system, but this is where my understanding falls of a cliff, even after reading up on it.

 

[woodj]

I don't think bookshelves are going to do it.

Some "bookshelves" have large woofers.

 

[Markoneswift]

You could always run a hybrid system. By hybrid, I'm thinking a big good looking vintage receiver but one that has pre-outs. You can then take that output into perhaps a modern power amp and utilise multi speaker distribution. That way you have the vintage style with a modern edge.

 

[Brian Bee]

You could always run a hybrid system. By hybrid, I'm thinking a big good looking vintage receiver but one that has pre-outs. You can then take that output into perhaps a modern power amp and utilise multi speaker distribution. That way you have the vintage style with a modern edge.

That's a great idea, thank you. I was actually looking at receivers with pre out and wondering how that worked with the exact scenario you suggested in mind.

I really need to double down on my reading about ohms and wattage and how speakers actually get powered. If I can just understand that, I think I could together a very nice system on my own.

 

[goodolpg]

What ever you end up with, put the volume control, heck, put the whole control center
WHERE IDIOTS CAN NOT ACCESS IT.
I know it's hard to believe, but some people and most children have no business using/playing with anyone's stereo but their own.

 

[Brian Bee]

What ever you end up with, put the volume control, heck, put the whole control center
WHERE IDIOTS CAN NOT ACCESS IT.
I know it's hard to believe, but some people and most children have no business using/playing with anyone's stereo but their own.

oh, i hear you! i worked with a tech in a nightclub a while ago that actually glued the gain knobs on the mixer to prevent whatever dingdong was playing that night from either sounding like garbage or causing a system shut down in the middle of service.

 

[whoaru99]

I understand- I would guess somewhere between 75-90. I think that'd be enough to fill a large voluminous room with "a lot" of sound if need be, yes? But again, I'm not some dummy looking for loud loud loud. I'm not looking for subwoofers or anything that will distort whatever music I'm playing. Just a nice, honest sound that I can turn up if need.

I hope that clarifies things.

Thank you.

You can use a calculator such as this to get a good understanding of the type of power you might be in need of.

It's not perfect but not bad; much better than sorta putting a wet finger up in the air.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[oblomov]

What ever you end up with, put the volume control, heck, put the whole control center
WHERE IDIOTS CAN NOT ACCESS IT.
I know it's hard to believe, but some people and most children have no business using/playing with anyone's stereo but their own.

Agree whole heartedly with this. I hope you are not considering a system like this to be available to any of your potential guests at all times. That seems to me to a recipe for disaster many times over. Better have a supply of replacement styli for any turntable you're thinking of using. And maybe a stack of replacement amps, too.

Despite the well-vaunted "vinyl resurgence" the average goon doesn't know the first thing about playing records. Hell, you may discover some fine morning the tone arm broken off completely!

There are many here on AK who don't allow their family members using their gear. And here a parade of total strangers?

And you will periodically get the buffoon -- "Wonder how loud this will go?"

 

[Brian Bee]

Agree whole heartedly with this. I hope you are not considering a system like this to be available to any of your potential guests at all times. That seems to me to a recipe for disaster many times over. Better have a supply of replacement styli for any turntable you're thinking of using. And maybe a stack of replacement amps, too.

Despite the well-vaunted "vinyl resurgence" the average goon doesn't know the first thing about playing records. Hell, you may discover some fine morning the tone arm broken off completely!

There are many here on AK who don't allow their family members using their gear. And here a parade of total strangers?

And you will periodically get the buffoon -- "Wonder how loud this will go?"

I totally understand what you're saying. You're not wrong! Rest assured everyone, this concept has been thoroughly thought through. That's my specialty. Trust =)

I'm more interested in suggestions and info for the receiver and speakers.

Ty!

 

[teal'c]

NAD T752

 

[oblomov]

Gotcha.
Then I have to agree with above folks, go pro with perhaps a Crown amp, maybe pro JBLs or some such. That sounds like a quite large space, and as you say, with maybe 30 or so bodies in the room, you would be surprised the SPL you need. But I'm sure you know the concept, since you have been in the biz.

Best of luck with this, BTW how many room BnB? and where, may I ask?