Listening Space Charity Case (receiver help, watts, ohms, etc.)

[Brian Bee]

Gotcha.
Then I have to agree with above folks, go pro with perhaps a Crown amp, maybe pro JBLs or some such. That sounds like a quite large space, and as you say, with maybe 30 or so bodies in the room, you would be surprised the SPL you need. But I'm sure you know the concept, since you have been in the biz.

Best of luck with this, BTW how many room BnB? and where, may I ask?

It's the technical stuff that I really struggle with. I've read a half dozen guides on receiver wattage, omhs, output, everything and I still don't quite get how to pair an amp/receiver with speakers.

if there's a guide on this site that i missed, i'd love to read it. i'd also be grateful for a PM chat with someone about it.

JBLs are exactly "how" I want it to sound, regardless of volume. Full, relatively neutral, and clear. Volume can come after.

Crown's seem awesome, but a) I can't afford $500+ on just an amp and b) overall a receiver suits my needs better.


It's not quite a BnB. 2, possibly 4 rooms, with regular events for a select group in the community. I'm in the Hudson Valley, NY.

 

[patate91]

HPM-100 are good rock/party speakers.

But I mostly agree to what peoples said so far, we need know what kind of SPL you need and kind of music you like. To give you an idea there's many venues or town that now ask for 95-96 db with 100db max peaks for concerts.

I guess 80 -85 db would be a good range. Some prefers loud and very loud music.

At night I mostly listen between 65-70db. During day when everyone moves in the house 70-75db, depending of music style. YMMV

 

[Brian Bee]

HPM-100 are good rock/party speakers.

But I mostly agree to what peoples said so far, we need know what kind of SPL you need and kind of music you like. To give you an idea there's many venues or town that now ask for 95-96 db with 100db max peaks for concerts.

I guess 80 -85 db would be a good range. Some prefers loud and very loud music.

At night I mostly listen between 65-70db. During day when everyone moves in the house 70-75db, depending of music style. YMMV

I'm not sure what SPL is. Again, I am lacking in the technical department here.

Those HPM's look nice, a tad high in price for me right now. But that's not a huge issue.

Real quick lesson- I thought that an amp/receiver could be overpowered and the speakers would be fine...but if underpowered, the speakers could be damaged.
So wouldn't, for example, those 100 watt HPM100's not work properly with all the c.50 watt receivers people have been suggesting?

 

[patate91]

To give you an idea of what spl - decibel (db) is

http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html

What's important about decibel is distance, you'll lose about 6db everytime you double the distance.

Unless your amplifier clips (let say put distortion) it can power any speakers. That's why someone said sensitivy rating. Tube amp of 1 to 3 watt can makes speakers too loud for listening.

Sensitivity 95db = with 1 watt of power you'll output 95db at 1 meter away from the speaker. Then you'll double double power for each 3 DB. 2 watts for 97db, 4 watts to 100, etc.

 

[patate91]

The room and the way you'll place your speakers will also have an influence you may have db boost or loss.

You'll certainly have a lot of bass because you have a large room, but more reverb too.

 

[Brian Bee]

To give you an idea of what spl - decibel (db) is

http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html

What's important about decibel is distance, you'll lose about 6db everytime you double the distance.

Unless your amplifier clips (let say put distortion) it can power any speakers. That's why someone said sensitivy rating. Tube amp of 1 to 3 watt can makes speakers too loud for listening.

Sensitivity 95db = with 1 watt of power you'll output 95db at 1 meter away from the speaker. Then you'll double double power for each 3 DB. 2 watts for 97db, 4 watts to 100, etc.

So SPL is essentially decibels. Got it. Yeah, like I said before, I think c.90db is a good place to be- the speakers, whether 2 or 4, would be traveling down from either wall mounts or hung from a rafter across the space which is approximately 950 square feet, high ceilings.

Right now, it sounds like people are suggesting one of several 50 watt receivers and 100 watt speakers.

The room and the way you'll place your speakers will also have an influence you may have DP boost or loss.

You'll certainly have a lot of bass because you have a large room, but more reverb too.

I'm confident I'll be able to best place them. My ears are good, it's just the technical stuff I'm lacking in.

 

[4-2-7]

I'll just get right to it-
I have a large space I'd like to fill with sound. It's an attic current being converted to a communal space for a possible BnB. I think it's approximately 1000+ square feet and there's a vaulted ceiling that probably goes over 15 feet.
There is one standard wall in the middle of the room, but the top stops at c.7 or 8 feet, so there's plenty of clearance for sound to travel through the whole space.

Well, one side of the space will be louder than the other unless you have 2 pairs of speakers 4 total and the power to dive them to loud volumes. Looking at your budget and needs

Sansui SP-5000 speakers, a bit hard to find though (90 watt 102db) but can handle being feed 150 WPC, and being fed that they will rip paint off the walls. It's a nice sounding all around speaker I used to have a pair that I drove with two McIntosh MC 275 mono blocked @ 180wpc, it sounded like a 600 watt system. The same would go for the SP-5500 (100 watt 102db)

A much easier speaker to find are the Sansui SP-3500, a little smaller but will rock the house. IIRC, they are 80 watt and around 100db, these are very common and can be found fast. They are and where a good all around speaker, as evident to how many that are still all over the place. They will also handle a lot of power over their rating, around 125 wpc.

But if you want loud and to drive two pairs of speakers I would not use one vintage receiver to do that job, but you could try it first.

So now lets look at the Sansi 9090, that will drive one pair of the SP-5000, 5500 or the 3500 really good. driving two pairs will cut your power in half but you will have more volume with more speakers evenly dispersed, so it might be enough for you. But if you need more power you can also use and external power amp to drive the second set of speakers, this will now go really loud.

The center wall could be the location for the gear, having the speakers on top the wall, one pair pointed to each side of the room. You would be able to control if both pairs are going at the same time or not. If you use an external power amp in conjunction, if it has gain controls you could change lower the volume to that side of the room.

But you should consider using a Niles volume control, two of these SVC-1 will alow you to balance the volume on both sides of the room, but you'll still can use the main volume on the receiver as well.

Right now, it sounds like people are suggesting one of several 50 watt receivers and 100 watt speakers.

Not me, if you don't want to clip and fry you speakers at high volume have more power than the speakers are ratted for.

 

[Brian Bee]

Well, one side of the space will be louder than the other unless you have 2 pairs of speakers 4 total and the power to dive them to loud volumes. Looking at your budget and needs

Sansui SP-5000 speakers, a bit hard to find though (90 watt 102db) but can handle being feed 150 WPC, and being fed that they will rip paint off the walls. It's a nice sounding all around speaker I used to have a pair that I drove with two McIntosh MC 275 mono blocked @ 180wpc, it sounded like a 600 watt system. The same would go for the SP-5500 (100 watt 102db)

A much easier speaker to find are the Sansui SP-3500, a little smaller but will rock the house. IIRC, they are 80 watt and around 100db, these are very common and can be found fast. They are and where a good all around speaker, as evident to how many that are still all over the place. They will also handle a lot of power over their rating, around 125 wpc.

But if you want loud and to drive two pairs of speakers I would not use one vintage receiver to do that job, but you could try it first.

So now lets look at the Sansi 9090, that will drive one pair of the SP-5000, 5500 or the 3500 really good. driving two pairs will cut your power in half but you will have more volume with more speakers evenly dispersed, so it might be enough for you. But if you need more power you can also use and external power amp to drive the second set of speakers, this will now go really loud.

The center wall could be the location for the gear, having the speakers on top the wall, one pair pointed to each side of the room. You would be able to control if both pairs are going at the same time or not. If you use an external power amp in conjunction, if it has gain controls you could change lower the volume to that side of the room.

But you should consider using a Niles volume control, two of these SVC-1 will alow you to balance the volume on both sides of the room, but you'll still can use the main volume on the receiver as well.

View attachment 988229 View attachment 988230
Smart ass indeed. =)


Not me, if you don't want to clip and fry you speakers at high volume have more power than the speakers are ratted for.

Smart ass indeed =)

 

[4-2-7]

Smart ass indeed =)

Why?

 

[Brian Bee]

Why?

I'm just referencing your own profile. You're suggesting I spend $10,000 or more for a couple of speakers and a receiver and, from the above discussion, that's clearly not an option.

I appreciate your advice about the wattage though.

Thank you.

 

[4-2-7]

I'm just referencing your own profile. You're suggesting I spend $10,000 or more for a couple of speakers and a receiver and, from the above discussion, that's clearly not an option.

I appreciate your advice about the wattage though.

Thank you.

Each pair of speakers would be less than $300 and most the time members find them for half of that, so lets say $400 for 4.

A receiver could be had for under $300 that has 100 watts, the volume controls don't cost hardly anything. So I don't know how you get ten grand when we're not even looking at $1000.

You should stat you actual budget, if your looking at this unrealistically then we don't need to wast out time in replying.

 

[Brian Bee]

Each pair of seekers would be less than $300 and most the time members find them for half of that, so lets say $400 for 4.

A receiver could be had for under $300 that has 100 watts, the volume controls don't cost hardly anything. So I don't know how you get ten grand when we're not even looking at $1000.

You should stat you actual budget, if your looking at this unrealistically then we don't need to wast out time in replying.

The Mcintosh amps you referenced? $4000+ a piece. The Sansui 9090? $1000+

You're right, I didn't give a specific budget. I thought the difference between a $300 Yamaha receiver and a $1000+ one would be obvious.
I have responded politely and sincerely to everyone here and appreciate everyone's comments. It's a great thread.
Your suggestions about the speakers and wattage are excellent, thank you.

I'd very much like to stay on topic here so let's have this be the end of it.

 

[4-2-7]

The Mcintosh amps you referenced? $4000+ a piece.

Strange it clearly states I had a pair, that I drove with <(merrily state what I had and how much power the speakers will take) don't see how you read that as a recommended amp.

The Sansui 9090? $1000+

Maybe or maybe not, it's a used item and prices are all over the map. Again it's a guide line that there is some powerful recovers. You could look at the Sansui G series, but the main point to get the most out of the speakers is to feed them power.

Your suggestions about the speakers and wattage are excellent, thank you.

Thank you

I'd very much like to stay on topic here so let's have this be the end of it.

Again, put a hard number down so others know what you want to spend.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

What ever you end up with, put the volume control, heck, put the whole control center
WHERE IDIOTS CAN NOT ACCESS IT.
I know it's hard to believe, but some people and most children have no business using/playing with anyone's stereo but their own.

Yes, dealt with tone deaf aerobics instructors cleaning up after their destruction. Said hearing impaired ladies blew JBL Professional Drivers weekly which would last me 50 years of normal use. Had to lock the power amplifiers, and the gain controls in locked racks to keep equipment lasting any time. These folks eventually were required to use the university arena house engineers. One idiot can do major damage, keep controls away from the public.

 

[patate91]

If you have time, skills ans tools DIY speakers are fun, rewarding and you have good sound for less money.

Paul Carmody has great designs, everything is free and parts express's forum has a lot built threads and impression on design

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

There's other designer out there that are well regard as well.

https://meniscusaudio.com/product-category/speaker-kits/

Enjoy

 

[patate91]

About diy speaker : F3 to 34hz for exemple means that the speaker measured in a control environnement has a + - 3db from 34hz to 20 000hz.

 

[patate91]

Here's a personal story.

I had a paire of diy speakers hooked on my pioneer sa-9900 amplifier (110w). The tuner was pluged on the switch plug.

One of my kid turned the volume almost at max then powered it. One of the amplifier's channel litterally blew but speakers remains intact.

 

[JoeESP9]

It's the technical stuff that I really struggle with. I've read a half dozen guides on receiver wattage, omhs, output, everything and I still don't quite get how to pair an amp/receiver with speakers.

if there's a guide on this site that i missed, i'd love to read it. i'd also be grateful for a PM chat with someone about it.

JBLs are exactly "how" I want it to sound, regardless of volume. Full, relatively neutral, and clear. Volume can come after.

Crown's seem awesome, but a) I can't afford $500+ on just an amp and b) overall a receiver suits my needs better.


It's not quite a BnB. 2, possibly 4 rooms, with regular events for a select group in the community. I'm in the Hudson Valley, NY.

There is no direct relationship between speaker wattage ratings and amplifier/receiver power. Speaker wattage ratings are for the most part useless and worthless.

 

[charles 1973]

There is no direct relationship between speaker wattage ratings and amplifier/receiver power. Speaker wattage ratings are for the most part useless and worthless.

I'm afriad speaker manufacturers would disagree. Try returning a speaker you just fried because you overpowered it!

Staying within the recommended power range will provide enough volume to satisfy most folks, and reduce likely hood of damaging the speaker if you keep it out of excessive clipping.

That said, I still use my 40w Minimus 7's with my 70w AVR. With a sub doing the heavy lifting, I am OK with that.

 

[JoeESP9]

In most cases a "fried" speaker's distress can be heard well before the frying occurs. It's about listening to what is actually going on with a speaker. This is why you can safely use a speaker with a 50 Watt rating with a 500WPC amplifier. You just have to pay some attention to what you're actually hearing. I'm reasonably certain many posters here will agree with "more power is almost always better".