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Listening to piano music

Bass on the left, treble on the right and in stereo, sounds right to me. I love it in pieces when they go from high notes to low and back again.
 
fiddlefye said:
Exactly. I suppose whether I enjoy this or not depends very much on what is being recorded, repertoire, expectation etc. If I am listening to a piano concerto and the piano is spread across the orchestra (or worse yet the image varies in width.... don't laugh, I have heard this) it can range from a mite odd to mildly distressing, but if it is solo piano or in some pop recording or such it can be fun.
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I don't recall if I've heard a piano vary in width but that would definitely bug me; that's just sloppy. I mean, if they're going to distort the stage width of an instrument, then at least keep it consistent. On the other hand, if they want to play around with the presentation of synth or electronically generated notes, then sure...have at it and have fun, but I prefer the natural acoustic instruments to sound just that - Natural.
 
onepixel said:
Bass on the left, treble on the right and in stereo, sounds right to me. I love it in pieces when they go from high notes to low and back again.
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Sounds like a simple and peaceful way of looking at it :thmbsp: Perhaps we should just stop bitching and simply enjoy the various musical splendor :music:
 
Fiddlefye has a good point I did not address, that a Piano sounds markedly different ten feet away from it then if you are right there. Its sound does 'bloom', and I'd expect becomes more of a mono source, albiet an eight foot long, five foot wide mono source, except in its radiating patterns. (most of the sound goes up, and is redirected by the lid, but a fair amount goes down, and resonances come from the body of the harp and the body of the enclosure itself.)

Personally, (and I'm sure this is due to being a Pianist) I prefer the sound of a close miked piano, rather then a mike suspended above a piano, or one ten feet away.

If only there was a good way to merge both recordings, close miked and the ambience, because a great deal of sound does radiate down, especially bass notes, and the sound of the pedals themselves.
 
A good argument for the "Living Presence" method of orchestral recording. One mic on the left, one on the right, one in the center. As performed. Done.
 
fiddlefye said:
Yes, but they do the same schtick in a concert hall as well. That baffles me. I've sat down and listened to individual tracks after a session and the result is often not much like the sound of a violin, sadly. In the studio recording a jingle or something I understand the constraints, but in a hall? Which orchestral recordings get the best string sound and how were they recorded? Yup. I've recorded piano lots of times and usually the best sound was obtained with a bit of careful experimentation at blending the near distance with the the room acoustic. Too much room sound and there isn't enough immediacy for my tastes and attack gets lost, too close and all of the loveliness of the sound gets left behind. How I view things at any rate. Mostly recorded with a single pair of mics relatively close together.
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You are completely correct in the venue regard.



MORTIS said:
I say its a stereo instrument. The strings are spread across a soundboard several feet wide, and the notes from each string should be somewhat heard emanating from that location on the board. The acoustic chamber of the piano will blur the location of sound from each string but only partially.
Of course with any fixed stereo image, the farther you are from the projected source, the more monaural it will sound.

I as well hear the bass notes on most recording to be off to the left and the treble to the right. I don't mind it too much because it adds to the grand size of the virtual stage, but at the same time it sounds unnatural from the point of view of 'audience' perspective and also because it makes the piano seem like the size of the entire instrument ensemble.
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I was referring to the proper use of the word: "Stereo". Stereo is only possible with 2 speakers. Stereo is a method of sound reproduction that creates an illusion of directionality and audible perspective.

While the piano has a wider sound stage than a violin, the stereo sound reproduction is completely dependent on the viewers position and should always reflect it if it is done properly.

^^ As others have stated in this thread, the piano is usually slightly to the left from a viewers position, with the high notes closer to the viewer than the bass. It could also be on the right - but it is almost never dead center with the player infront or behind it.

Just panning the mics to left and right is the "simple" way out and it almost never sounds correct.
 
I play and own several pianos, including a concert grand. It really bugs me when the piano is not miked for bass=left/treble=right, as it is for me as a player on the bench. I prefer the miking to be close to the piano rather than distant. I *like* to hear the damper trapwork and the sound of the felt of the hammers and dampers interacting with the strings because there's a lot of information in that that tells me about the performer's approach to playing a piece. Those subtle bits of mechanical "noise" aren't part of the music, but they are part of the experience of playing. I want to hear myself right at the bench, not in the fifth row.
 
jazzmans said:
...and resonances come from the body of the harp and the body of the enclosure itself...
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I'll have a minor quibble with that here, but since this is not a piano forum where that point would fill at least three pages, I'll keep it brief:

The harp (usually called "plate") is not intended to resonate at all. If it does, it's considered a defect. Most plates are "gray iron" while a few here and there are lately made out of welded steel. The only good resonance is among the strings, with the spruce soundboard acting as a transducer to transmit the vibrations through the air, and through the spruce soundboard to sympathetic strings where pitch is some multiple harmonic.

Only one maker among the many of pianos actually designs a piano with the intent that the wood rim should resonate with the soundboard. All others strive for a rim that is as accoustically noninteractive as the plate, with the goal being not at all.

The energy of the strings that bleeds beyond the hitchpin termination points of the strings ends up dissipating as heat in that gray iron of the plate. IF a plate actually resonates, it's a limited fundamental frequency and its multiples, particular to the plate--which could *never* "harmonize" with the whole keyboard range, and which will be heard by a piano technician and player as a "ring", which is very undesireable and would lead to a piano being rejected for any serious use. Even that one maker that builds to have the rim act as an integral part of the soundboard transduction assembly strives and succeeds in building plates that do NOT resonate, at all.

I studied all aspects of playing and piano technology including tuning and rebuilding, for about five years (about 12 hours a day), in what seems another lifetime. My name can be found in a NYT best-seller book on the topic of piano technology. I don't consider myself a "pro" in the same sense as the other names in that fine book, but I reckon I know my piano well enough to be proud to have earned mention along with the big names in the business that understand the technology behind the art.
 
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ev13wt said:
I was referring to the proper use of the word: "Stereo". Stereo is only possible with 2 speakers. Stereo is a method of sound reproduction that creates an illusion of directionality and audible perspective
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That is of course the most common interpretation of the word 'stereo'. I don't agree with such a restricted definition but I'd have to take this thread too far off topic to explain; however I now have a better understanding of what you were originally trying to say.
Thank you for clarifying.
 
jaguar06 said:
I'll have a minor quibble with that here, but since this is not a piano forum where that point would fill at least three pages, I'll keep it brief:

The harp (usually called "plate") is not intended to resonate at all. If it does, it's considered a defect. Most plates are "gray iron" while a few here and there are lately made out of welded steel. The only good resonance is among the strings, with the spruce soundboard acting as a transducer to transmit the vibrations through the air, and through the spruce soundboard to sympathetic strings where pitch is some multiple harmonic.

Only one maker among the many of pianos actually designs a piano with the intent that the wood rim should resonate with the soundboard. All others strive for a rim that is as accoustically noninteractive as the plate, with the goal being not at all.

The energy of the strings that bleeds beyond the hitchpin termination points of the strings ends up dissipating as heat in that gray iron of the plate. IF a plate actually resonates, it's a limited fundamental frequency and its multiples, particular to the plate--which could *never* "harmonize" with the whole keyboard range, and which will be heard by a piano technician and player as a "ring", which is very undesireable and would lead to a piano being rejected for any serious use. Even that one maker that builds to have the rim act as an integral part of the soundboard transduction assembly strives and succeeds in building plates that do NOT resonate, at all.

I studied all aspects of playing and piano technology including tuning and rebuilding, for about five years (about 12 hours a day), in what seems another lifetime. My name can be found in a NYT best-seller book on the topic of piano technology. I don't consider myself a "pro" in the same sense as the other names in that fine book, but I reckon I know my piano well enough to be proud to have earned mention along with the big names in the business that understand the technology behind the art.
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Absolutely right on all counts of course. Of course the plate will vibrate as it and everything near a piano has no choice in the matter, but the involvement in the sound of the piano will be limited. I do have to laugh at some of the old advertising that described the plates in a company's pianos as "bell metal". Ha ha. Good ol'pig iron.

In the same way every part of the violin vibrates and has at least some influence on the final sound and must be accounted for right out to the scroll. Everything has some sort of say in the final sound. Vibration is never a one-way street, passing from the bow through the chain and back as well. Like a piano, the non playing length of the string can and should be tuned as well, not that most players bother. I find on my instruments it makes a huge difference (usually tuned to an octave and a fifth, but varies by string brand).

I'm in no way a piano expert in the sense that you are, but have done my own studies and restored quite a number of pianos, mostly old classics from the 1890's through the 30's. Keeps me out of trouble and most gratifying to rescue the good ones. I have this sweet little 4'11" Behr Bros. I save from the dump. Lovely quality and not a shortcut taken in spite of the small size. There are four pianos sitting in my shop waiting for me as I type and making me feel guilty....

Sorry, wandered OT!
 
Frequently those who play (any instrument) want to hear as if they were playing. Just as many want the audience perspective. Although I play (piano very poorly, I'm a bassist), when I'm listening I want the audience perspective for all instruments.

As has been pointed out several times; at a concert the piano is almost always turned sideways. The right side (high notes) is closer to the audience. There is no stereo effect from this positioning.

A solo piano from the bench is OK. It doesn't sound right (to me) when that bench perspective is combined with an orchestra.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Frequently those who play (any instrument) want to hear as if they were playing. Just as many want the audience perspective. Although I play (piano very poorly, I'm a bassist), when I'm listening I want the audience perspective for all instruments.

As has been pointed out several times; at a concert the piano is almost always turned sideways. The right side (high notes) is closer to the audience. There is no stereo effect from this positioning.

A solo piano from the bench is OK. It doesn't sound right (to me) when that bench perspective is combined with an orchestra.
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My feeling exactly. When it is a solo piano it is kinda fun to have bass left/treble right as it makes me feel like I am a much better pianist than I really am.....
 
JoeESP9 said:
Frequently those who play (any instrument) want to hear as if they were playing. Just as many want the audience perspective. Although I play (piano very poorly, I'm a bassist), when I'm listening I want the audience perspective for all instruments.

As has been pointed out several times; at a concert the piano is almost always turned sideways. The right side (high notes) is closer to the audience. There is no stereo effect from this positioning.

A solo piano from the bench is OK. It doesn't sound right (to me) when that bench perspective is combined with an orchestra.
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Yes, this is very much how I see it. Although I don't ever like such close mikes that the mechanics of pedals, hammers etc. over shadows the music, I do like the immediacy of close(er) miked recordings for piano solos. I also prefer NOT to hear the pianist - Kieth Jarret is usually miked too close, and I find his moaning along to be very distracting! I'm sure some find it "intimate", but really, I don't think it's necessary to hear someone's breathing, or foot pedal movements.
I figure the instrument is supposed to project the music, and just like speakers for playback, there are optimal listening distances to allow the music to "jell".
 
frommerstop said:
Yes, this is very much how I see it. Although I don't ever like such close mikes that the mechanics of pedals, hammers etc. over shadows the music, I do like the immediacy of close(er) miked recordings for piano solos. I also prefer NOT to hear the pianist - Kieth Jarret is usually miked too close, and I find his moaning along to be very distracting! I'm sure some find it "intimate", but really, I don't think it's necessary to hear someone's breathing, or foot pedal movements.
I figure the instrument is supposed to project the music, and just like speakers for playback, there are optimal listening distances to allow the music to "jell".
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With Keith Jarrett and Glenn Gould I'm not sure how much you could do to eliminate the moaning. I've seen pics of Glenn's recording sessions and they had baffles between him and the mics and it still came through. Heck, I've even heard him moaning a little on organ recordings he did!
 
fiddlefye said:
...I'm in no way a piano expert in the sense that you are, but have done my own studies and restored quite a number of pianos, mostly old classics from the 1890's through the 30's. Keeps me out of trouble and most gratifying to rescue the good ones. I have this sweet little 4'11" Behr Bros. I save from the dump. Lovely quality and not a shortcut taken in spite of the small size. There are four pianos sitting in my shop waiting for me as I type and making me feel guilty....

Sorry, wandered OT!
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I'm glad you wandered. It's nice to know there's someone similarly afflicted here. When my folks died, I inherited another house, with yet more pianos. So far, I just let them live over there, as there's only so many places to put the things in one house and I've at least one too many here already. When I'm not giving away stereo systemsto the needy, I give away pianos.
 
fiddlefye said:
With Keith Jarrett and Glenn Gould I'm not sure how much you could do to eliminate the moaning. I've seen pics of Glenn's recording sessions and they had baffles between him and the mics and it still came through. Heck, I've even heard him moaning a little on organ recordings he did!
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Serkin's humming along with his playing is a little disconcerting, too.
 
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