Loft party system build - Help!

[Josh b]

Hello everybody.

I tried this on the Klipsch forum without realising it’s not cool to be posting about clones and custom builds on there any longer. I am looking for some advice on building a system -
forgive the essay.

I run a sound system which currently comprises of two pairs of khorns run with Leben amps, it’s very much a Loft style party which regularly finds itself in different venues. We set the system up each time we throw an event and take it all down again at the end of the day.

Unfortunately the system is being split up due to one of us moving away. So I intend to build more speakers. Three possibly five if I really fall down the hole.

Klipschorns have historically been the speaker of choice for these parties as you can separate the HF above head height, the passive x-over means one amp per pair and although big the bins can be moved around easily enough. The downsides being you have to use them with false corners, you can’t tune it in anyway so phase coherence can be tricky.

The application for the system is 2-300 people in a roughly 6mx5m rectangle. Ideally we would set up two stereo pairs in quadraphonic and one mono stack rear centre. One of the biggest issues is off axis listening, this is a room full of people opposed to an ideal listening point. Usually we set them up in a rectangle facing each other then toe each stack in to reduce standing waves, a basic approach but gets us quite far.

There are four us on the build project with a combination of cabinet making/cnc/cad/making skills. I also work in a vintage hifi store in London called Audio Gold (well worth a visit if you find yourself on this side of the pond) and have good knowledge of a variety of equipment and how to set it all up. So we have some basis covered, however, we lack in real technical knowledge when it comes to speaker design. I’m finding myself on an infinite dive into these forums to figure out exactly what we should build and how to do it.

Seeing as the system is set up in different locations under different circumstances often I know that I cannot strive for 100% accuracy. What I’m after is as close as I can get, something that doesn’t fatigue at -100db and can fill a large ish space without struggling.

Main considerations

• 4:1 / Quad + mono set up ~200-300 people
• HF needs to be raised to head height
• Needs good polar coverage
• System is moved and set up in new spaces regularly
• Set up time

Here are my thoughts so far;

Option 1; Build some khorns with a few tweaks

• Modelling the LF bin is easy enough
• Design a tracktrix/hybrid horn using calculator/forum advice and cnc it
• Either buy Crites or Volti components & crossovers
• Fairly safe bet, all tried and tested combinations / specs, a known entity
• But have weaknesses, especially in the dance party application. I feel there are better options.

Option 2; Build some jubilee clones

• From what I read K-402 is another world in comparison to the 400/401, this has me hooked.
• The 402 challenges seem to be;
  • Buying horns or modelling them accurately
  • Choosing a CD - Celestion or TAD
  • “Phase plug extension” acoustic lens w/ Axi2050 or CD mount size/shape
  • EQ/delay requirements
• The folded LF bin challenges;
  • Choosing a design 2x11”, 2x15”, 1x15” + ported
  • Choosing a driver and matching it to the design, ie chamber size - don’t understand the maths required here at all
  • Accurately modelling a bass bin
  • The size of the LF bins is a large issue - have to cart the things in and out of the living room every couple of months. 150kgs is not a practical object.

Option 3; 402 horns with alternate bass cabs

• I feel pretty set on trying to build a 2-way system with 402 horns
  • Simplicity, better phase coherence - it seems like the way forward
• It might be sacrilege but if the Jube LF cab is too big maybe there are alternative options.

Option 4; MEH speakers

• Hard to pull off, some serious maths and precision involved - big sticking point
• Smaller and easier to move around
• I have heard them but only in PA application. This is a hifi setting. I am unsure if they will sound as hifi as I would like.
• As far as I can tell they aren’t as efficient and need some power to drive them. Currently using a 60w & 100w valve amp.

Extras;
Likely to build some additional subs in the future too. Any advice on designs appreciated.


Questions;

• DSP vs active x-over vs Passive x-over ???
  • We are analogue at our core, the idea of introducing a digital processor doesn’t excite me.
  • From what I gather a DSP seems like a necessity with Jubes? I understand the major benefits of being able to EQ, adjust x-overs and tuning - there is appeal here, I would like to learn how to technically tune a system - but the purist in me has doubts. I would also need to double the amount amps!
  • What DSPs are recommended? I would need many outputs for a 5:1 Jube system if that’s the ultimate goal!
  • Are the downsides of a passive x-over really so significant? Does anyone make one suitable for the Axi2050 or can anyone spec a circuit?
  • I feel active x-overs are at the bottom of the list - if there is a good enough one maybe that could be a good solution for me?
  • Am I correct in saying there is an essential delay requirement on a Jube? - making a DSP really the only way forward?
• Can anyone comment on the manoeuvrability of the jube bins, 150kgs really!? Sounds like a 4 person job? - I wonder if I can break it down into two pieces? Is there lighter versions?
• I’ve seen some 402s paired with Khorn LF cabs - with the Axi2050 you could cross at ~300hz which makes it quite a viable option, I guess usually the pros of the jube over the khorn win without question. Khorn bins are more faff for sure, but perhaps a practical option. Good idea?
• Are there any other LF folded horns I could consider? University classics?
• Is the HF roll off on the Axi2050 going to be an issue? Is EQ’ing this the best solution? If that airy sparkle is import what are my options?
• Can anyone comment on a MEH build - worth the hassle?

I asked Chat GPT what it thought. It confirmed by leaning towards the 2 way jubilee build as the successor to the khorn and a more efficient speaker, simpler build than the MEH approach.

Would love to know what some of you think of the project and what advice you may have to offer me.

Here is a picture of our false corner and riser set up at the moment, just for reference.

Thanks very much!
Josh

 

[winglet]

Have you considered klipsch MWM for the bass horns?

 

[THD+N]

Claude... this is all you!

 

[Cask05]

Have you ever gotten out a handheld SPL meter and taken measurements during your parties?

 

[Gigantic]

Welcome! We love mods here, so you’re in good company. @ClaudeJ1 will have plenty of recommendations for you, don’t let him scare you off!

Another alternative to the K400 is the PRV 18x10 horn that’s pretty popular amongst this group. There are no shortage of 2” drivers to go along with it. A lot of us are also bi-amping or even Tri-amping with dsp crossovers and many, if not most, are using class D amplification. Since you’re doing events, you may be better served with a pro-audio crossover, although the Jubliees definitely benefit from dsp parametric eq.

 

[THD+N]

Since portability seems to be a main requirement, I would suggest building LaScala clones and complement them with powered subs. Easy set-up and great sound.

 

[Gigantic]

Jube-Scala with MWM bins ftw!

 

[winglet]

 

[cecaa850]

"System is moved and set up in new spaces frequently" and MWM are polar opposites.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

Josh B. Not asking for much are you?

The "new improved" Corner Horn from Klipsch, otherwise known as the Underground Jubilee is no longer made. BUT it's a better performer than a Khorn in every way, and simpler to build with additional weight, since it uses 18mm Baltic Birch. The issue is the "double stacking" that you have done with Khorns. Are you able to lift that much weight into the corners? Also what electronics are you planning to use, what is you BUDGET (British Pounds or US Dollars). I'm Canadian and bi lingual so I can translate, LOL>

It takes 2 people to physically handle single bass horn without strain. The "double size MWM bass bin in the right most Photo above requires 4, so I would cross that one off the list from other suggesters.

 

[Bushikan]

I agree with @ClaudeJ1.

I own Klipschorns and have auditioned Klipsch Jubilees. The Jubilees surpass the KHorns in every way. You could easily get by with one set and two amps for a space/crowd of that size.

The Jubilees also don’t “require” portable false corners.

 

[DirtyErnie]

I've also see the 'Underground Jubilee' built as 1x12" units designed to be stacked together. That might be your hot ticket for bass bins.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

I agree with @ClaudeJ1.

I own Klipschorns and have auditioned Klipsch Jubilees. The Jubilees surpass the KHorns in every way. You could easily get by with one set and two amps for a space/crowd of that size.

The Jubilees also don’t “require” portable false corners.

One Jubilee would not raise the midrange/Tweeter section high enough above dancers, so that would be likely not work. Celestion is a Brit company, so he may be able to get those drivers cheaper, with the big horn, specifically designed for it, without exposrt/import/distributor/dealer markups. worth looking into.

Also another issue is, they only work to 60-70 Hz. out of corners so you would still need a subwoofer unless you PEQ the heck out of it, like the new Jube

I have plans for a unique Jubilee derivative that use 3 12" drivers. As you all may know Two 12" drivers in parallel have equal Sd on an 18" to you can use lots of EQ with the right drivers to 30 Hz. so imagine what you can do with THREE 12" drivers in that horn in a corner, time 2 per corner (if weight is not an issue or if built with 12mm lumber).

 

[Dave MacKay]

View attachment 2965382View attachment 2965383

View attachment 2965382

OMG!

Is that a K402 horn (on top) with MWMs?

 

[ClaudeJ1]

OMG!

Is that a K402 horn (on top) with MWMs?

Yep. And I was there to hear that bad boy setup in 2007. I ended up selling my Khorns within a month and gettin 4 MWMs versions.

Twin 15" K43's as a 2-way crossed at 500 Hz. GOT BASS? I based by Quarter Pie horn on the core section of that horn.

But it's better cut, (built as a Single version) in half for transport and setup. That is a full MWM (I interviewed Gary Gillam, the co-holder of the Patent with PWK). If the SINGLE version, called the MWMs, is built, then it goes through any doorway, and can be carried with only 2 guys. Much easier to build than Khorns or Jublile es with much better performance. It's a bifurcated horn with only ONE fold, like a big LaScala. The ultimate would be to stack up 3 or4 singles per corner, but a Treble Horn on top and PEQ them flat to 30 Hz. After all, horns put out enough extra Bass BELOW their horn cutoff, and with 4 15" Pro Driver (even from Celestion which are cheaper) you would have a killer setup that would trounce a two-stack of Khorns or Jubilees if these were to be in room CORNERS! They are 17" (43 Centimeters) tall as singles, so 4 of them would be roughly the same height as 2 Khorn bass sections with more sensitivity and more outputs.

They could even be reconfigured as Corner Horns, with smaller components to be assembled at the Loft Gig for easier transport without sacrifice of superior performance.

 

[Cask05]

My question about SPL in-room that you are currently getting (and haven't yet answered) is important to know in order to effectively propose one or more approaches.

Additionally, it is important to know if you have any real experience using DSP crossovers to dial-in your loudspeakers using acoustic measurements.

If not (and if you are not willing to learn), I don't believe that you are going to generally improve on the sound quality that you get using split Khorns.

Chris

 

[ClaudeJ1]

Like hiring a Lawyer for your legal stuff or hiring a CPA for your Tax stuff, the OP should hire one of us as Audio Consultants (I would recommend a Danley Dealer in England, if not for the "let's build our own stuff" aspect).

Free advice on this scale of investment and production is not good. Otherwise it's irresponsible on our parts because we have no "skin in the game," so to speak.

Having been a Wedding Photographer for decades, meant we were hired to take full responsibility for the outcome, a year ahead of time, regardless of weather, the slipped schedules, late Limos, clergy with bad attitude (paying for the sins of less than Professional photogs the week before), and too time and too much drinking with early Catholic Weddings/Later receptions. You get the idea about creating good outcome No Matter What for an Album that would last a lifetime.

The OP should know better than to ask for "FREE" advice here, without a long list of SPECIFICS! In Quality Engineering we called it "Scope of WORK."

So, in the name of Personal Integrity, I'm bowing out of this thread.

 

[Josh b]

Hello all,

Thank you for your responses, and your patience. Slow to come back as I promptly went on holiday for a few weeks after posting and work followed by illness has had me nailed down since my return. I have been wanting to come back to you all for weeks, please accept my apologies.

To answer your questions in turn;

Have you considered klipsch MWM for the bass horns?

I have thought about the MWM, although I am not sure they are any smaller than the Jube LF cabs in terms of size being one of my biggest issues. Long term I was anticipating building some of the Super variant i’ve seen to cover the sub range. Vertical polar coverage also an issue without stacking lots of them together I think.

Have you ever gotten out a handheld SPL meter and taken measurements during your parties?

I haven’t. A big element of this step is learning the metrics. How do I quantify ‘better sound’. How do I measure the system to provide feedback for set up and tuning, etc. It seems essential to learn these things. I see getting to grips with a DSP as just this, learning how to measure and respond.

- How far can I get with a handheld SPL meter or should I invest in a measurement mic and software? Or both?

in order to effectively propose one or more approaches.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you would like Chris.

Since portability seems to be a main requirement, I would suggest building LaScala clones and complement them with powered subs. Easy set-up and great sound.

Jube-Scala with MWM bins ftw!

Eventually I see the system being installed in a more permanent location. So getting to grips with a dsp and eq seems sensible. Presuming a dsp will ultimately give better results.

Also struggling to find anything on the PRV 18x10 horn, can you direct me?

La Scalas with subs on their own won’t do it for me I feel. Pretty sure I want a lower horn sound form a two way system. Add mwms then maybe. But then we’re getting into a whole pile of speakers and I may as well build Jubes/mwms


@ClaudeJ1

Great. Yeah I think if Jube LF cabs are manageable with two people then that puts them in the lead.

To clarify the stacking, we are only using one khorn in each stack, the middle piece is just a spacer to raise the HF above head height. As you say, one Jubilee would not raise the midrange/Tweeter section high enough above dancers. So I would also need to design something similar to pick up a horn from a Jube LF - not ideal sound wise I’m sure. But possible in the same context I hope.

Yes I have settled on the Celestion Axi2050 as I can get them at an okay price and I feel they are good enough for my purposes. Regarding the horns, I had already considered the Celestion options although found out they decided not to manufacture them in the end. Subsequently I have managed to track four of them down and they are now a serious contender.

Regarding sub 70hz, until such a time as I can add passive horn loaded subs into the system I would most like use the existing khorn false corners where possible and two active subs.

I have plans for a unique Jubilee derivative that use 3 12" drivers. As you all may know Two 12" drivers in parallel have equal Sd on an 18" to you can use lots of EQ with the right drivers to 30 Hz. so imagine what you can do with THREE 12" drivers in that horn in a corner, time 2 per corner (if weight is not an issue or if built with 12mm lumber).

Interesting! Could build them out of 12mm whether two drivers or three I suppose. Although there would be more resonance?

But it's better cut, (built as a Single version) in half for transport and setup. That is a full MWM (I interviewed Gary Gillam, the co-holder of the Patent with PWK). If the SINGLE version, called the MWMs, is built, then it goes through any doorway, and can be carried with only 2 guys. Much easier to build than Khorns or Jublile es with much better performance. It's a bifurcated horn with only ONE fold, like a big LaScala. The ultimate would be to stack up 3 or4 singles per corner, but a Treble Horn on top and PEQ them flat to 30 Hz. After all, horns put out enough extra Bass BELOW their horn cutoff, and with 4 15" Pro Driver (even from Celestion which are cheaper) you would have a killer setup that would trounce a two-stack of Khorns or Jubilees if these were to be in room CORNERS! They are 17" (43 Centimeters) tall as singles, so 4 of them would be roughly the same height as 2 Khorn bass sections with more sensitivity and more outputs.

Even more interesting! If I had the storage this could be the way. Ultimately I was thinking a super mwm or two on the bottom would be a good addition!

They could even be reconfigured as Corner Horns, with smaller components to be assembled at the Loft Gig for easier transport without sacrifice of superior performance.

Not sure if you mean like the underground Jube or Like a Khorn with false corners? In some ways more parts are more of a pain. It all has to be stored somewhere

So, in the name of Personal Integrity, I'm bowing out of this thread.

Understood completely. I am grateful for the input you have offered already Claude, thank you.

I am not expecting explicit advice on exactly what to do that will give perfect results. This is very much all a part of my audio journey, the next step on from the system I use currently in the quest for better sound. It’s all learning and asking questions on ideas to gain a better understanding. I appreciated I am leaning on some professional help and experience in the process and would not wish to put anyone out.

I've also see the 'Underground Jubilee' built as 1x12" units designed to be stacked together. That might be your hot ticket for bass bins.

This is a good idea - although from what I understand splitting into 2 12” units will effect the low end response?

*****
So this is where i'm at;

Options?

Bass horns;

1. Jubilee clones
- A friend has imported a jubilee LF horn and reverse engineered it, so we will have plans to build those. Which seems promising.
2. MWMs
- Sounds like the no nonsense approach - build a bunch of these, stack em up.
- Downsides are space and amping. I would need a lot of space to store 16 mwms. Running 4 in series possible on one 16ohm amp I suppose. 
- Does anyone have plans they would like to share? Still hard to gauge the full size of an mwms


Treble horns;

1. Celestion horns 
- Can get hold of them, although not cheap. Unsure how they compare with the K402. Is it worth the extra effort to build a k402?
2. K402 replica
- Bit of an unknown, have the skills between us to build one but no plans at current.
3. K402 import
- Not viable, can’t get hold of 402 horns via Klipsch dealer and too expensive to import.



Questions

Celestion horns + drivers

The strongest idea at the moment is to build some Jube LF clones and match them with Celestion AXI2050 drivers and LR9045H horns.

Celestion decided not to manufacture the horns in the end but I have managed to track four of them down.

So I have some new question about the compatibility of Celestion’s horns with Jube LF’s and also comparisons with the K-402.

From what I understand it is quite important to match polar coverage between the LF and HF. There is limited information from Celestion but I do have horizontal and vertical polar maps. Reading what I can from these they seem to break up around 550hz at -6db, in comparison I read the K-402 goes to ~300hz at -6db. So I’d be loosing out between ~650hz and 350hz is paired with a Jube LF horn. They also have different dispersion angles (see information screenshots attached).

There is also two Celestion horns to choose from. The 9045 and the 6040. I feel the wider horn is the right choice for my application, unless the narrower horns is going to be a better match…


Questions are;
- Which Celestion horn would be best suited to my situation?
- Can anyone offer 2 cents on the statistical differences between these Celestion horns and the K-402?
- Will they be compatible enough with the Jube LF?
- Is it a good idea?


I will endeavour to be more on it with the communication from here on! Many thanks again for your interest and opinion on my project.

Josh

 

[Gigantic]

if you want pure horn loading to the low frequencies, this may be out, but I just built a LaScala/Chorus hybrid with authoritative bass extension down to the low 30's- I should have definitive measurements this weekend. I'm not sure where you'll find them in the UK, but the PRV WG-45-50 is available from Parts Express in the USA, as well as eBay and Amazon.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

Understood completely. I am grateful for the input you have offered already Claude, thank you.

I am not expecting explicit advice on exactly what to do that will give perfect results. This is very much all a part of my audio journey, the next step on from the system I use currently in the quest for better sound. It’s all learning and asking questions on ideas to gain a better understanding. I appreciated I am leaning on some professional help and experience in the process and would not wish to put anyone out.

I own alarge stock of speaker, parts, plans, a K402 mold, big treble horns, big JBL's, big bass horns, etc. We probably need to talk. I'm in Michigan. PM me for my cell. I have serious solutions for YOU to make up your mind. Time is money. And it looks like you will be making some with all this when it's done. The sooner the better.