Looking for Amplifier to use with AR 2ax Speakers

[nightbeat]

Hi Everyone,

I know this has been posted about before, and believe me, I've read the threads. But I could use some advice. I'm looking for an amplifier to use with a pair of nicely restored Acoustic Research AR-2ax speakers.

I'm currently using an Onkyo TX-8222 50 wpc stereo receiver. My turntable is a Rega P1 with an Ortofon OMB 5E cartridge. I'm planning to upgrade the TT and cart soon, hopefully to a Technics SL-1200GR with Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML cart.

I mostly listen to vinyl, but I plan to listen to some CDs as well. Favorite music is sixties and seventies soul and rock, but I enjoy everything.

I've read differing opinions on what amps people like to use with these speakers. Some prefer tube power and say they do fine at low wattage. Many others say they don't really come alive until they tried high wattage solid state. The consensus seems to favor this latter opinion.

I really like the AR 2ax's. Although sometimes they do seem maybe a bit underpowered. Like I keep turning the volume up more than I usually do, looking for a bit more oomph and dynamics. But then again, how they sound is very recording dependent. I was initially concerned about their bass response. But after listening to many records and one very well produced CD, I've found that the speakers do a great job at reproducing what's on the recording, including bass when it's there.

So do you think a higher powered SS amp or receiver would be a good match with these speakers? Someone recommended going 85wpc and up. There has also been a lot of people recommending vintage 70's receivers: Sansui, Marantz, Pioneer, etc. Forgive my ignorance, but is there something special in particular about them? A couple people said they like Sansui in particular with these speakers.

Budget is $500-$600 ideally, but I could go up to $1000 for the perfect item. Right now I'm considering:

Sansui 8080DB 85wpc
Sansui 9090DB 125wpc
Sansui AU 717 85wpc
Sansui Eight 50wpc

I'm sort of leaning toward the 717 because I think it's the one I'm most likely to be able to find in my budget. The Eight/Eight Deluxe has less power but I've heard great things.

So is there anything I'm missing? Am I on the right track? Any makes/models I should have on my short list?

Thanks!

 

[sberger]

Any of those are excellent, but they are old, and therefore for best performance and reliability should be thoroughly checked through internally by a reputable tech(unless you plan on doing it yourself). After that, I would suggest getting the most power you can. While the 2ax's are certainly easier to drive then other AR speakers like the 3 and 3a and would do fine with any of them, having more power will afford you more headroom which is always a good thing.

 

[DEAFASABAT]

The AU-9900, 90 W/ch @8 ohms would be a good fit. Sansuis of that time frame sound great, as long as all the switches and controls are clean.

 

[Dswankey]

.. I'm looking for an amplifier to use with a pair of nicely restored Acoustic Research AR-2ax speakers....do you think a higher powered SS amp or receiver would be a good match with these speakers?

Budget is $500-$600 ideally, but I could go up to $1000 for the perfect item. Right now I'm considering:

Sansui 8080DB 85wpc
Sansui 9090DB 125wpc
Sansui AU 717 85wpc
Sansui Eight 50wpc

So is there anything I'm missing?

How dead set are you on just an amplifier? you would then need to get a pre-amplifier as your Onkyo TX-8222 does not have pre-outs.

If you aren't listening to AM/FM no need for a receiver

FWIW a properly working Sansui AU-717 integrated amp would be my biased suggestion seeing as i had owned one for quite awhile a mighty beast.

 

[Dswankey]

Also your AR's are a relatively efficient speaker which do not require a lot of WPC to drive them so maybe factor that into your purchasing consideration

 

[KentTeffeteller]

40-50 Watts/channel into 8 ohms will be fine. A nice Sansui 4000 will do just fine or something like it.

 

[Hoytis]

I can vouch for the Sansui AU-999. It's got 50 watts of super clean warming goodness. Love it. Plenty of power for those speakers, and can easily handle 4 ohm speakers if you ever go that route. I rarely get volume above 30%, so lots of head room.

 

[nightbeat]

Any of those are excellent, but they are old, and therefore for best performance and reliability should be thoroughly checked through internally by a reputable tech(unless you plan on doing it yourself). After that, I would suggest getting the most power you can. While the 2ax's are certainly easier to drive then other AR speakers like the 3 and 3a and would do fine with any of them, having more power will afford you more headroom which is always a good thing.

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any recommendations for higher powered amps in my budget? What wattage should I realistically be aiming for? Do you think I should consider new amplifiers as well, or is there something special about the sound of vintage amps? For instance, a quick search on Crutchfield shows the Yamaha A-S501, 85wpc, for $550. I just kind of picked that one at random, as an example. Would a vintage amp with similar specs sound better?

 

[nightbeat]

The AU-9900, 90 W/ch @8 ohms would be a good fit. Sansuis of that time frame sound great, as long as all the switches and controls are clean.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will definitely add that one to my list. I like the look of the silver knobs with the black faceplate.

 

[nightbeat]

How dead set are you on just an amplifier? you would then need to get a pre-amplifier as your Onkyo TX-8222 does not have pre-outs.

If you aren't listening to AM/FM no need for a receiver

FWIW a properly working Sansui AU-717 integrated amp would be my biased suggestion seeing as i had owned one for quite awhile a mighty beast.

I was thinking about getting something to completely replace the Onkyo. Or I could use the Onkyo in a secondary system. I almost never listen to the radio through my stereo system, so I don't really need a receiver. I'd also be willing to consider an amp with a separate phono preamp, though.

Thanks for the plug for the 717. I think I could track one of those down if I settle on it.

 

[nightbeat]

I can vouch for the Sansui AU-999. It's got 50 watts of super clean warming goodness. Love it. Plenty of power for those speakers, and can easily handle 4 ohm speakers if you ever go that route. I rarely get volume above 30%, so lots of head room.

The AU-999 looks nice. So is it pointless for me to be searching for more power? I've just read some other threads where people seemed to appreciate what higher powered amps brought to the table with the AR-2ax's. Am I wrong to assume that a higher powered amp would give me more detail and clarity at lower volumes? I definitely want to be able to listen at a moderate volume with clean, clear sound, no distortion.

Would the Sansui AU-999 rated at 50wpc perform and sound much different than my Onkyo receiver rated at 50 wpc?

 

[nightbeat]

I guess the other consideration is the phono preamp. With any receiver or integrated amp, a good sounding phono preamp is critical since I listen to a lot of vinyl. I could always get a separate phono preamp if necessary, but I think I'd be just as happy with a great sounding phono stage in an integrated amp.

 

[spark1]

The AU-999 looks nice. So is it pointless for me to be searching for more power? I've just read some other threads where people seemed to appreciate what higher powered amps brought to the table with the AR-2ax's. Am I wrong to assume that a higher powered amp would give me more detail and clarity at lower volumes? I definitely want to be able to listen at a moderate volume with clean, clear sound, no distortion.

Would the Sansui AU-999 rated at 50wpc perform and sound much different than my Onkyo receiver rated at 50 wpc?

Yes, you are wrong about that.

While having enough headroom to avoid clipping the signal (or at least keep it to a minimum) is very important, having more power than is needed to do that has no effect. It is only potential power until it is put to use. If you have a 100 watt amp and are using only 10, the other 90 have no effect.

A 50-75 watt adequate amp will be quite adequate for the 2ax, especially if you don't plan on trying to hit concert level loudness. That said, I run the old pair of AR2a's in my workshop with a 250 watt amp! Not so much to get loud as to assure that I always have headroom. However, be aware than many solid state amps have slightly higher distortion measurements when operating at low output levels (vs close to their rated power).

The 2ax was ARs first effort at a speaker voiced more for rock music, which was taking over the airwaves and record stores. I've never found it to be a good nearfield or low volume speaker (but of course, opinions vary widely on speakers).

The better the amp and preamp, the more detail and clarity in the signal....but the bulk of sound quality is a function of the speakers (assuming a decent amp to begin with).

BTW, have you recapped them and cleaned the pots? This may provide at least some of the desired clarity and detail. And are you sure that both tweeters and both mids are working?

 

[Dswankey]

The AU-999 looks nice....Would the Sansui AU-999 rated at 50wpc perform and sound much different than my Onkyo receiver rated at 50 wpc?

Comparing Apples to Oranges plus way too many variables to answer a question like this.

Sui is an integrated amp the Onkyo is a receiver

As for sounding different the only way to know that would be if someone at one point owned the 2 exact models and did a compare and contrast. My guess is there are few to none who have.

One other thing, those old Sansui's punched above their weight when it came to listed WPC on top of that 50WPC can be VERY loud is you were to max it out. Most folks would be amazed at how little watts they are actually utilizing when listening at moderate levels

 

[mfaz28]

The fully restored pair I have, sound great with several different early 80’s high current capability Harman Kardon amps.

 

[Hoytis]

The AU-999 looks nice. So is it pointless for me to be searching for more power? I've just read some other threads where people seemed to appreciate what higher powered amps brought to the table with the AR-2ax's. Am I wrong to assume that a higher powered amp would give me more detail and clarity at lower volumes? I definitely want to be able to listen at a moderate volume with clean, clear sound, no distortion.

Would the Sansui AU-999 rated at 50wpc perform and sound much different than my Onkyo receiver rated at 50 wpc?

More power isn't going to give you more clarity at lower volume levels. Your speakers are good down to 20 watt amps, though that might be pushing it if you ever wanted to get the volume up higher than moderate. No idea how big your room is, but 50 watts and above should be way more than enough. That said, I have a Harman Kardon 330c in another system and it's only 20 watts. That thing brings a ton of volume to my office space which is about 12 x12. I don't get over about 40% on the dial with that receiver. I would only worry about watts if I were trying to power some speakers with low sensitivity or trying to fill a huge living room.

The Sansui would sound different from your Onkyo, but that doesn't necessarily mean better. It's all in the ear of the listener. However, I know I personally would enjoy something other than the Onkyo. That's a pretty entry level amp. A quality vintage piece would bring some depth and detail to the music.

 

[nightbeat]

Yes, you are wrong about that.

While having enough headroom to avoid clipping the signal (or at least keep it to a minimum) is very important, having more power than is needed to do that has no effect. It is only potential power until it is put to use. If you have a 100 watt amp and are using only 10, the other 90 have no effect.

A 50-75 watt adequate amp will be quite adequate for the 2ax, especially if you don't plan on trying to hit concert level loudness. That said, I run the old pair of AR2a's in my workshop with a 250 watt amp! Not so much to get loud as to assure that I always have headroom. However, be aware than many solid state amps have slightly higher distortion measurements when operating at low output levels (vs close to their rated power).

The 2ax was ARs first effort at a speaker voiced more for rock music, which was taking over the airwaves and record stores. I've never found it to be a good nearfield or low volume speaker (but of course, opinions vary widely on speakers).

The better the amp and preamp, the more detail and clarity in the signal....but the bulk of sound quality is a function of the speakers (assuming a decent amp to begin with).

BTW, have you recapped them and cleaned the pots? This may provide at least some of the desired clarity and detail. And are you sure that both tweeters and both mids are working?

Thanks, this is all great information.

That's interesting, I read a commenter elsewhere saying that the AR-2ax's were designed for accurate reproduction of classical music. I'd be interested in doing some more research into their history. It doesn't really matter either way, as long as they sound great (and they do!).

The AR-2ax's I have were recently restored, including recap of crossovers and new L-pads were installed. Yes, both tweeters and mids are working.

To be clear, I think clarity and detail are something the AR-2ax's excel at. A couple times when I went for more volume, I heard some distortion on female backing vocals. However, I'm beginning to think that this had to do with the recording itself because I haven't heard it again on many other recordings. On certain recordings, I sometimes keep dialing up the volume a bit, searching for....something. As I said before, more oomph, more power, more dynamics maybe? Anyway, several people have pointed out that my amp could stand an upgrade, so I thought maybe that would help.

Listening closely to vinyl, it is interesting how wildly different the recording quality, loudness, and dynamics can be on different records. I've heard some albums that sound so damn quiet and flat, and others that sound way more full and present. I think some of what I'm discovering is that a lot of what I'm hearing is differences in the source material.

 

[spark1]

Yep. Recording quality varies quite widely.

 

[nightbeat]

More power isn't going to give you more clarity at lower volume levels. Your speakers are good down to 20 watt amps, though that might be pushing it if you ever wanted to get the volume up higher than moderate. No idea how big your room is, but 50 watts and above should be way more than enough. That said, I have a Harman Kardon 330c in another system and it's only 20 watts. That thing brings a ton of volume to my office space which is about 12 x12. I don't get over about 40% on the dial with that receiver. I would only worry about watts if I were trying to power some speakers with low sensitivity or trying to fill a huge living room.

The Sansui would sound different from your Onkyo, but that doesn't necessarily mean better. It's all in the ear of the listener. However, I know I personally would enjoy something other than the Onkyo. That's a pretty entry level amp. A quality vintage piece would bring some depth and detail to the music.

Room size is approximately 17' x 11' with my setup on the long wall.

Yeah, honestly I never really get above about 40 percent on my volume dial either.

 

[kydog]

My set is paired with a fully refurbished Sansui AU-717/TU-717 Combo with excellent results