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LPs versus CDs

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I prefer CDs for the same reason many people hate them. There's no tweaking to do. Just put it in the player and it sounds as good as it can. I don't have to worry about the condition of the stylus, the tracking weight, cartridge alignment, direct drive vs belt drive, do I want the better mids of cartridge X, or the better treble of cartridge Y,... I like knowing that every time I play a song it sounds exactly the same.

I hate to say it, but that isn't true. The CD will be the same, but the quality of the Digital Analog converter has a lot to do with the sound. Although usually, it isn't a problem unless you get a really cheep CD player (like those $15 portable ones). Although yes, it is easier to get a great sound out of a CD.

I have to say though, when I am in the mood, useing records can be fun, I have always like processes, and things with lots of buttons and blinking lights.
 
No offense, but that is simply not true. I have an ear for phase and used to walk into stereo departments of "low fidelity" stereo stores and immediately realize some stereo salesman had hooked up speakers out of phase. I'd quickly reverse the wires on one speaker, sometimes while they were protesting, and explain afterwards what I was doing. I would then help them to understand how to hear it. Reduced bass is only part of it. Heck, I even created an active surround sound synthesizer for my car stereo back in the early 70's by messing with phase. It worked pretty well.

Now, if you mean there may be a SLIGHT phase mismatch, that is something else entirely. The phase is not reversed, however.

OK, I was hoping to avoid having to go into all this, but here goes: (BTW, this isn't a personal attack or argument, but something I want to share with everyone)

Yes, most people can hear when one speaker is wired correctly, and the other isn't. That's a given, a point I won't disagree with, but that wasn't what I was talking about. But follow me here, the exact reason you can hear it will prove what I'm about to talk, well, about...

1. This is the most important point to I want to try get across is this: "Phase" and "Polarity" are NOT the same thing at all. How did they become confused? Test signals. A sine wave or a square wave are most often used, and looking at them on an oscilloscope screen, it truly is impossible to tell if they are 180º out of phase or inverted polarity. So what's the difference?

Phase refers to moving the wave backwards or forwards in time relative to another wave, that's all. That's also the reason you want your speakers the same distance from your head when listening:music:. If you are a vocal, wind instrument, or fretless string musician, learning to listen for phase shift is how you tune your instrument as you play. For those not familiar, these instruments don't have a fixed pitch like a keyboard, so for the player, "tuning" is something done constantly on the fly as you play. It's not as hard as it sounds really.

Polarity is different, it literally means flipping the wave over, up becomes down, down becomes up. Easy to do electrically, basically impossible in nature as far as sound goes. Sound waves are compressions of air, followed by the air returning to its natural state. In other words, there's no vacuum in between the pressure waves. If it were possible to see it rendered accurately, electrically, on a scope, none of the wave would come close to the 0V line. I think Nelson Pass discusses some of this in his newest article "Leaving Class A" on his website. I read it, but I was kind of tired when I did. Point being, every natural sound we hear begins with a pressure wave. Electrically that means the signal has to go from 0V upwards, which should push the speaker cone out. If it goes in, you won't hear anything at all until the air rushes in to fill in the vacuum created, and that's quite a bit after the cone actually moved.

2. Two very helpful courses I took as an undergrad were physics of the arts, and electronic music. The electronic music class was "old school", the most advanced bit of equipment we were allowed to use (which FORCED us to be creative) was an old ARP Odyssey. Most acoustic instruments, as well as voice, naturally produce sound waves that have a sawtooth shape, not sine or square. Clarinet and some organ pipes are about the only acoustic instruments that naturally produce sound waves that are square-shaped. Dr. Douglas taught us that 90% or so of what the human ear perceives as timbre is determined by the very first attack of the very first wave hitting your ear. He did a tape-loop demo with us in class where we recorded an oboe, an alto saxophone, and a trumpet (me) all playing a 440Hz "A". It was easy to tell us apart with the tape loops as is, but when he went back and cut the first half-inch out of our sounds on the tape, all of a sudden you couldn't tell who was who anymore. You could tell they weren't exactly the same sounds, but you couldn't identify the specific instrument.

SO, (if you're still with me here:boring:) if your system inverts polarity, you will lose at least the front half of the first sound wave, and the rest may be distorted by air rushing in to fill the vacuum.

3. If you are curious as to whether or not your CD player inverts polarity (most do), listen to a recording you know really well with the system set up as it is, then turn the amp off, flip the speaker wires (positive for negative, not left channel for right channel), turn the system back on and listen to the recording again.

If the vocals are easier to understand, or the instruments sound more realistic, or the drums have more "kick", or the bass goes a little deeper, or the cymbals sound a lot better, or the system sounds "faster", or all of the above, your CD player inverts polarity.

So, the point of my earlier post was, a correctly set up turntable is correct polarity, and most commercial CD players are not. It was my contention that this accounted for why most people perceived a huge difference between the quality of a turntable and a CD player.

Now I'm going to rest my fingers a bit....:yes:
 
LP's just sound more pleasant to my ears, not necessarily better, but more pleasant...

and I find cd's to sound to hot sometimes...

yet again, it's all in the mastering though...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.
 
Hey, with LPs, those static and dust noise are played live... they aren't recorded !

CDs only deliver recorded material in high fidelity... LPs deliver both recorded and live material -at the same time-;.. which is, in a way, higher than high fidelity !
 
OK, I was hoping to avoid having to go into all this, but here goes: (BTW, this isn't a personal attack or argument, but something I want to share with everyone)...

Heh heh. I didn't see it as an attack or argument. I actually appreciate your going into it. I get the feeling what you are saying is, to use an example, if you record a kick drum, and you do not reverse polarity, the initial kick which pushes the drum will also cause the speaker reproducing it to, at the first instant, push out (just as the drum did), but if you reverse the polarity (of BOTH speakers, so they are still in phase), the initial action of the woofer will be to pull in.

Makes sense.

Btw, you said, "'Phase' and 'Polarity' are NOT the same thing at all. How did they become confused?"

I confused them because of your post that said some people call polarity phase (I paraphrase). From that point on I thought you were talking about what I call phase. It is clear now that it is not what you were talking about.:thmbsp:

Question though: Since most people don't bother to make sure plus goes to plus on their speakers, but rather, that they are in phase, does this not mean that you could find your system inadvertently wired in reverse polarity, making your albums "reverse polarity" at the speaker while your cheap CD player is the proper polarity?

Lastly, I noticed on your profile that you have some knowledge in this area. I was already assuming there was a disconnect somewhere. ;)
 
I hate to say it, but that isn't true. The CD will be the same, but the quality of the Digital Analog converter has a lot to do with the sound. Although usually, it isn't a problem unless you get a really cheep CD player (like those $15 portable ones). Although yes, it is easier to get a great sound out of a CD.

I have to say though, when I am in the mood, useing records can be fun, I have always like processes, and things with lots of buttons and blinking lights.
I have an acquaintance that uses a Denon CD player that he picked up used and actually ACCIDENTALLY found out that the player can greatly affect the quality of the sound. He mentioned that even though this player can sometimes have a hard time tracking some CD's it sounds audibly better than any of his other players.

Maybe there really IS some reason those CD players at Difinitive Audio were $2,500...:D
 
You can see them spin...:D

Yep.;)

rega1-1.jpg


Happy 4th to you, too!
 
What you call fresh I call old and stale not to mention borderline trolling.
You sound, I dunno...GRUMPY:grumpy:

To be fair, I haven't argued this stuff in years and it was kind of refreshing to do it again. I can see how it would be borderline trolling though.

I hate trolling!

BTW, you think tubes are better than solid state? ;)
 
Yep.;)

rega1-1.jpg


Happy 4th to you, too!
I notice it had a "planet" button. I think that is a player from the future, since we don't have to worry about the different voltages/frequencies used on different planets.

Since this is a "vintage" forum, I therefore submit that that picture should be banned.:nono:

Looks like something out of Blade Runner. Very cool.
 
I like both formats, but vinyl has a more "warmer" sound to it while CD's sound a little harsh. It has to do with the mastering process, because when I record vinyl onto a CD, it tends to keep that "warm" sound.
 
I like both formats, but vinyl has a more "warmer" sound to it while CD's sound a little harsh. It has to do with the mastering process, because when I record vinyl onto a CD, it tends to keep that "warm" sound.

Yeah, I've noticed that retained warm sound too when listening to WAV files made from LPs.
 
I agree. Plus to start a thread that says one is better than the other without stating that it is an opinion just invites flaming.



I'm a believer in the potential of DSP technology. Once in the digital domain sound can be processed-enhanced-colored to personal taste. Will it make a solid state amp sound like a tube? Maybe not. Could a good processor add color to a recording to make rock and roll sound good on an ultra accurate playback system? I think that is possible. We won't know until modern component manufacturers start getting more creative with their product offerings. And that, in a nutshell, is why I listen to vintage equipment and why I love vinyl.

Lordy! I won't do it again! I promise!
 
Thanks, It's the result of my wife throwing me out of the living room. :banana:...

You can imagine why (this is not the decor she had in mind up there...:D)



Actually, we can probably search and find a thread on nearly any discussion on any audio related topic here. Does this mean that AK is now just a historical database where some of us should just search for answers, instead discussing them afresh?

What's enlighting in this thread is that it's managed to get to nearly 80 posts without derailing and getting closed, due to its "controversial" discussion topic. :thmbsp:

Let's celebrate that...:music:

Thanks!
 
You sound, I dunno...GRUMPY:grumpy:

To be fair, I haven't argued this stuff in years and it was kind of refreshing to do it again. I can see how it would be borderline trolling though.

I hate trolling!

BTW, you think tubes are better than solid state? ;)

Okay, what's "trolling"? Man, I'm out of touch with something or other.
 
Okay, what's "trolling"? Man, I'm out of touch with something or other.

To me, trolling is starting a thread just to bait people into posting without any sincerity just to see the masses get riled up. Knowing there are passionate people that will argue a subject without any right or wrong or resolution.

You see it on boards where a person is bored, had a bad day or needs their ego boosted and makes a thread to ridicule hobbyists or fans who are devoted to their hobby or special interest. Some are quite clever and make up background stories. Hard to tell motivation sometimes, so some members here bend over backwards to be nice. If you suspect it is trolling, you can post or ignore and let it die. Always a choice.
 
To me, trolling is starting a thread just to bait people into posting without any sincerity just to see the masses get riled up. Knowing there are passionate people that will argue a subject without any right or wrong or resolution.

You see it on boards where a person is bored, had a bad day or needs their ego boosted and makes a thread to ridicule hobbyists or fans who are devoted to their hobby or special interest. Some are quite clever and make up background stories. Hard to tell motivation sometimes, so some members here bend over backwards to be nice. If you suspect it is trolling, you can post or ignore and let it die. Always a choice.
Okay, thanks. I certainly wasn't trolling. I was just wanting some knowledge, maybe even some statistics, about LPs and CDs, and of course what ended up was a barrage of opinions. I know now that I need to search the forums for information before starting a new thread.
 
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