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Marantz Crossover Question

J

jijo76

New Member
Folks, I have been reading a lot (and posting nothing) thus far in this wonderful community. I have a question now that I'd love to hear though what people here think. I have obtained 5-6 years ago a pair of Marantz HD-88 speakers *https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/marantz/hd-88.shtm) .
I know from reading that people don't think much of Marantz speakers but to me they are wonderful and I believe this is because of the wide frequency response (as sidebar - what modern replacement speakers would you recommend without going into huge $$ territory?).

Over the years I've used them with vintage Marantz, Kenwoods with great success and more recently with Denon POA-2400 and Technics SU-V9 which also work fantastic (sound sourced via Dynaco PAS 3 tube pre-amp).

I have noticed recently a slight cibilance with my typical crossover settings on some songs - all 3 potentiometers (mid/twitter/super twitter) on RoomIQ position. If I dial a bit the super twitter the "effect" goes down. This got me started to think about opening them and possibly recapping the crossovers. That may or may not be a good idea on its own - which is why I came here to ask for advice. These are 40-50 year old speaker that I really, really enjoy and love the sound. What should I do:

1. Nothing - enjoy until they stop one day
2. Recap - to prolong their life
3. Recap - to improve?
4. Buy new speakers?

From what I can tell - see pictures - they have 4 100 VDC capacitors: Temple 2 uF, Alissa 5MFD, Temple 20uF and Temple 30uF.
Long post here - but would absolutely appreciate your advice (and opinions) on the subject.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a_dDGlGE4D5teD4C26CIYiAZS12ZTeLv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ytQ5AAh32oPaYAxixH81kcxNYLmEU3oH/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nx3hbGE-Cj08o059oewHjuAe7YMJpqQw/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rRjpJJJ_u5X6nbx3HDuwBXnL-06IJZNu/view?usp=sharing

view
 
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Actually the HD series('s) by Ed May are some of the Marantz speakers that many people like.
I have the HD66. I have found, and others concur, that the mid and treble controls are not the greatest in the original HD series. Loose, sloppy, intermittent connections. No idea if they used the same controls in the HDxxx (next series).
Your speakers are old enough the electrolytics may have drifted and a recap might be advised.
If you are going to recap I'd give the controls a good look see and cleaning at the same time.
 
@goodolpg thanks for the advice - the controls are identical to your HD66's except there are 3 of them - I agree on the sloppy comment, I cleaned them with DeoxIT while I was looking at the crossovers, their movement improved greatly after the treatment.
One thing that I am not sure of is are the capacitors the original ones or did someone along the years already has recapped them. I am not arguing one bit that these are likely old but I'm not sure these are electrolyte capacitors, they look like mylar capacitors which I believe don't age/leak as bad as electrolyte ones but I am not an expert.
 
@bowtie427ss - thanks, in your opinion given the type of speakers/caps involved - which brand/series would you recommend for the replacement path?
My budget will ideally be around $100 per speaker give or take.
 
jijo76 said:
@goodolpg thanks for the advice - the controls are identical to your HD66's except there are 3 of them - I agree on the sloppy comment, I cleaned them with DeoxIT while I was looking at the crossovers, their movement improved greatly after the treatment.
One thing that I am not sure of is are the capacitors the original ones or did someone along the years already has recapped them. I am not arguing one bit that these are likely old but I'm not sure these are electrolyte capacitors, they look like mylar capacitors which I believe don't age/leak as bad as electrolyte ones but I am not an expert.
Click to expand...

Yours have the yellow capacitors?
I'm not sure what type those are but I don't think they tend to drift as much as NPE's.
There are a few poly/mylar caps AK'ers tend to like, costs vary of course.
Have you Googled---> recapping marantz speakers audikarma?
That might get some hits and ideas for you. Or even other brands, plenty of speaker recapping threads here.
 
Yes, they are yellow - hopefully the links to the pictures open, they are the Temple brand.
For whatever reason I can't find much specific to these speakers in terms of comments on recapping.
I know my question is quite wide open (kind of like "tell me what kind of food would I like?") but still at least some direction might be helpful.
From what I have gleaned from the generic threads, I'm inclined to go Mundorf MCAP Supreme EVO Aluminum Oil for the 2.2 and 4.7 uF (for the current 2 and 5 uF respectively) and be "cheap" with Mundorf MCap EVO Aluminum Oil (22 and 33 uF for the current 20 and 30 uF respectively)
 
jijo76 said:
which brand/series would you recommend for the replacement path?
Click to expand...
I would simply opine that 70's vintage mylar caps made in Mexico represent the absolute minimum standard of quality for capacitors in an audio circuit. The majority of the industry would agree with me.
 
Also, while dealing with the caps... are these resistors (seen in the 1st picture) something that I should replace as well, while I'm at it?
 
Ok, will be recapping!
On the resistor topic - I'm surprised that the resistors (can be seen in the first picture) are only 5W for a speaker that claims 300W.
I know the 4-way crossover cuts the energy going to the highs but still... the woofer resistor is 5 ohm +/- 10% with 5W rating and the mids have 15 ohm +/- 10% with 5W rating.

Should I be changing these to Mills? Should I be going for higher Watt ones?
 
Well, it is done - I upgraded the 4 caps on each crossover on my Marantz HD88's.

In the end I used Mundorf Supreme EVO Aluminum Oil for the 2.2 and 4.7 uF (instead of the 2uf and 5uf) and Solen 20uf and 30uf for the original 20 and 30uf.
While I was somewhat concerned about a shift in the crossover points - in practice there is no perceivable difference in this regard (at least not for me). No body replied but I changed the resistors with Mills for the heck of it.

I was scared to try to unglue the crossovers - so I had to do all the work on the crossovers while they were in the cabinets. To tell you the truth, given that my soldering skills are almost non-existent and was dealing with different size parts...it was not very easy.

What is the effect of it all?

To keep the suspense I will say first that the caps I took out - the yellow ones were spot on even after 45 years of service - they ranged from 1.5% to 4.4% absolute deviation (well within +/-10% spec). Good job Marantz and Temple.

How about the sound you may ask? Wonderful - the result is more pronounced in the "highs" which are now more audible, alive - veil being take off etc. (but I would not say a blanket was taken off). What about the base/lows? Initially I did not see much difference - I also think that a few more hours of brun-in (for those who believe in it) are in order.
But somewhere about 45 mins into running them - I noticed something. I have 2 amps with A/B button toggle on the same speakers. The amp that historically has been strong but somehow making a tubbish sound with the old caps - was now sounding simply wonderful. I believe this amp - Denon POA 2400 is know to be very "fast" and I wonder if the old caps - while well in spec - were simply not responding fast enough. Who knows... I love it. Is it worth the cost - (these Mundorfs are not cheap) - no, if you look at it as a finance person. Is it worth to me - heck yeah!

Pictures in the links below - should open even though they look broken .

Cheers!

Before:

After:
view


Old Caps:
 
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Thanks for the update.
I can't see the images, but that might just be me.
Were the Mundorfs much bigger than the OEM caps?
I have recapped a pair of 3 way speakers (Infinity RSM) going through the woofer hole, and it's dark and not easy. Congrats on doing it the hard way.
 
@goodolpg - for the pictures, try clicking on the words "Before", "after" etc. instead of the actual image icon and please let me know if that works.

Yes, the Mundorfs are huge in comparison to the original caps, easily 5-10x. This is also why I abandoned them for the mid/woffer section - there is absolutely no room for them there and went with Solen. I used the other hole of the post plate - if you get the pictures you'll see what I mean to a) 'suspend' the cap so I can solder on top and b) not to have to hold 2 or 3 more wires while soldering the cap end.

It worked well but I'm glad not to have to do it again ;)

"
goodolpg said:
Thanks for the update.
I can't see the images, but that might just be me.
Were the Mundorfs much bigger than the OEM caps?
I have recapped a pair of 3 way speakers (Infinity RSM) going through the woofer hole, and it's dark and not easy. Congrats on doing it the hard way.
Click to expand...
 
Can't see nothing but a black screen with a yellow spinning circle, but that's probably my fault. My Google thingie is on "pause" and I couldn't figure out how to turn it on again. No big deal.
Interesting that the OEM caps were still in spec.
 
Marantz had some sleepers in their speaker lineup, especially ones made by Ed May. The HD series and M series were some of his best work before his sudden death.

I have a set of the Model 400's with Vari-Q plug and they are wonderful speakers. The crossovers were fairly complex but everything sounded good as-is. The controls needed a cleaning after sitting idle for so long but that was about it.

Definitely on par with a comparable JBL speaker, great bass, highs, etc. Awesome looking with the grill off to boot.


Enjoy your speakers and don't be afraid to open them up for surgery. Its worth it.
 
I have a Marantz crossover that I had taken apart and I just measured the values on the caps. I have the Temple 5, 20 and 30 mF, all 100 volt. All come in at 5-10% above their stated values so they are still within tolerance (+10%).
 
It was amazing how close to spec the original ones are after 45 years.. the yellow temples - see below.
Yet, the new ones sound better in my ears - more "authority" is the word that comes to mind.

Label Original L Original R Max % diff vs. Design ESR (L) ESR (R)
30.0 uF 30.37 31.05 3.5% 0.10 Ohm 0.08 Ohm
20.0 uF 20.23 20.78 3.9% 0.08 Ohm 0.08 Ohm
5.0 uF 5.02 5.22 4.4% 0.14 Ohm 0.11 Ohm
2.0 uF 1.97 2.00 1.5% 0.72 Ohm 0.53 Ohm
 
Update - after some good amount of hours of listening, I realized that the speakers sounded as if two different brands of capacitors were mixed. That might be because they were!
The highs sounded overemphasized and the mids had a bit warmish and "stuffed nose" sound.

I proceeded to change the Solen caps for the mids and lows to Mundorfs EVO Oil, though not "supreme".

Even though it was difficult to fit them all inside - I couldn't simply mount them on the places the old capacitors were - the sound is fantastic now, more coherent.

My conclusion of this sample of "1" is that it is likely better to keep the same manufacturer/brand/line throughout the entire crossover.
 
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