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MC 2255 & C29 service maintenance or component upgrades

jervz

Member
I'm taking my 2255 amp & C29 pre-amp for service and cleaning to our local technician in our area as the potentiometers are scratchy and sometimes the left channel gets distorted intermittently.

Our local technician has done LED upgrades, DC offset, bias adjustments, power meter calibration, power cable upgrades with ground and full recap (mostly using Nichicon UFG caps) on MC vintage amps.

I'm interested on your experiences or recommendation on the type of service maintenance and component upgrades you would suggest for these vintage equipment. My amp and preamp still have the original factory components.

Appreciate your feedback!
 
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A proper "recap" and service is certainly due for these. The C29 will mostly need caps and potentiometer (Caig Faderlube is recommended for these pots, I understand that DeOxit can cause damage) cleaning plus switch cleaning.

The MC2255 might not need much, meter connections can become a problem (internal, fairly tedious job not to be messed with until there's a problem), switches and pots cleaned and lubricated. There are at least 5 versions of the MC2255 the latest beginning with S/N 32001 and many parts change from version to version. Some (according to the late Chris) had suspect thermal-protection transistors (the ones poking into the output transistor heatsinks) that should be upgraded/replaced, otherwise just a good bench test and replace what is no longer in spec.

Both of these units are well made, any service should start with a properly trained McIntosh Technician who is familiar with these units and has the proper documentation.
 
OEM main caps in McIntosh SS autoformer amplifiers seem to have an extraordinarily long service life.
 
In addition to the above, I would ask them to do a THD check using a distortion analyzer or an O'scope with FFT, since it's already in the shop. Any good service shop would have that capability.
 
@SaturationPt , thanks for feedback.

For Caig Faderlube, I've searched online and found products "Caig DeoxIT FaderLube solution spray (F5)" but it still has the "DeOxit" marking on it. Are referring to the same product? Also, our technician informed he normally disassembles potentiometers to clean it rather just spraying it with contact cleaner. Do you think this is necessary or prone to other issues?

The S/N of the 2255 is CT4980, purchased by the first owner in '85 and does it mean I don't have to replaced the thermal protection transistors or should I just do it anyway?

Apologies in advance, for my lack of knowledge but is there a way to find out if the components (capacitors, resistors or transistors) are out of specs without desoldering them and what do you mean by bench test?
 
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In addition to the above, I would ask them to do a THD check using a distortion analyzer or an O'scope with FFT, since it's already in the shop. Any good service shop would have that capability.
Thanks, I'll include this as what of the things to be checked. May I know the other purpose of doing this THD check other than checking if there are any visible distortion caused by the scratchy potentiometers?
 
OEM main caps in McIntosh SS autoformer amplifiers seem to have an extraordinarily long service life.

@62caddy, you are referring to the two big capacitors of the 2255, right? Just in case, the two capacitors are already out of specs, is the OEM cap still available in the market ? If not, is there any preferred brand to replaced these capacitors and does this component affect the sound signature of the amp?
 
Yes I believe that the Faderlube is also part of the DeOxIt line, if it says Faderlube you’re there.

Disassembling potentiometers? Unnecessary, and can lead to problems as the tabs only bend so many times, I’d prefer to leave them closed if there isn’t a problem. However, telling a (good) Tech how to do his job might come with its own risks.

You have the last version, a pretty late one at that, it will be using the latest schematic and part list (PM me if you need it). When your Tech looks at the schematic the late version has the S/N breaks for the newer part values throughout the part lists. The early Service Manual / Schematic does not have those (039401 & 039402 printed on the front pages of the correct SM).

The large capacitors are likely fine, but can only be tested at their rated voltage, not with a small hand-held / battery cap tester. If they need replacement there are new ones, but the supply comes and goes, the Tech might have to wait a while. Provided the capacitors are good and the proper spec they will have no effect on sound, their job is only to filter ripple out of the rectified DC power supply and to store power for peak needs. I could say similar to a gasoline-engine car’s battery having no effect on the car’s acceleration.
 
Thanks, I'll include this as what of the things to be checked. May I know the other purpose of doing this THD check other than checking if there are any visible distortion caused by the scratchy potentiometers?
The primary concern would be clipping or crossover distortion caused by the bias being off in the amplifier output stages of the 2255. If the unit had any past issues in this area, such as blown output transistors or burned/opened resistors, then a distortion test is a good idea to make sure it was serviced properly. (If the Sentry Monitor circuits are operating OK, then you should be in good shape.) But, since it's already in the shop, I would have them do the check just to make sure.
 
Ditto to Saturation Pt on the filter caps. I did a thorough check of those on an MC250 that I picked up (almost 20 years older than the 2255) using a lab grade capacitor tester (Sencore LC-101) and the PEAK ESR70 capacitor tester and they both came out with flying colors and within spec. And checking the P.S. ripple with a scope confirmed the out of circuit tests. All was good, at least for the foreseeable future.
 
@62caddy, you are referring to the two big capacitors of the 2255, right? Just in case, the two capacitors are already out of specs, is the OEM cap still available in the market ? If not, is there any preferred brand to replaced these capacitors and does this component affect the sound signature of the amp?

Are you measuring the caps themselves or the unit as a whole? McIntosh designs allow for a wide operating tolerance for electronic parts so while an individual cap may have drifted from what it tested when new, it doesn't necessarily mean the unit won't still meet or exceed original spec. I cannot speak to your individual case but all main power caps are still original in four McIntosh amplifiers I have- the newest of which is an MC2155 and all four continue to exceed factory spec- for whatever that may be worth.

If new caps are absolutely necessary, I would suggest consulting Audio Classics who would be in the best position to recommend suitable replacement parts.
 
I’ll add to Caddy’s reply, ... because I’m enjoying coffee and The Moody Blues on a Saturday and why not?

True, most caps etc. are going to be fine even slightly outside of their range however: The unit was designed and tested within the original tolerances, bets are off on performance outside of tolerance. Most things will not be a problem, in fact most power supply capacitors can drift quite a bit with only a degradation in their ability to filter noise or store power, which would likely take a lot of drift before it’s noticeable unless it’s causing more heat.

When I was designing, industry-standard 20% resistors (for example) were used when deviations from the designed values had little or no effect, and of course we’d drop to 10%, 5%, 2%, Precision where it really did matter. So in most cases these standard tolerance devices could drift without detrimental effect. Good to have it checked and have all drifted components replaced at this point in its life however.

Regarding electrolytic capacitors: This is highly misunderstood, capacitor replacement is a huge profit center and a great way for people to claim added value and performance. There was (is?) a guy in Ann Arbor, Michigan for example who would take vintage Marantz receivers, add a bunch of extra capacitors wherever they would fit to the power supply main caps, then claim “re-rated to xxx watts”. Sure, Marantz Engineers didn’t think of that when they were trying to get the best power rating out of their design (rolling eyes here as a former Design Engineer).

So what capacitors should you replace, and with what?

First question, any that are out of spec, or could go out of spec before the next time you plan to have it in for service. They are cheap (except a couple of big ones or multi-caps) and testing them properly will cost about as much as just having them all on-hand to replace when you’re in there, which is why most of us will have all EL caps on the part list on-hand before removing covers, just rip them all out and replace (well, de-solder carefully). Leaky ones in the right spots will draw power and make it run warm.

Second question is a bit harder to answer but the easy one is with exactly what the original Design Engineers have in there from the factory! For me this part is easy. For most circuits there is a hierarchy. There are cheap electrolytic caps, more expensive non-polar electrolytic caps, small-value ceramic etc., and yes the film types are usually larger and more expensive.
For many/most needs the electrolytic caps suffice. There was no reason nor advantage to installing a film cap so the standard-tolerance electrolytic cap was designed in and installed. When there is a sonic or other performance advantage or other reason to install a different technology capacitor such as a film cap, it’s already in there from the factory. If a film cap is in there, or a precision value, put one back in. If it’s an electrolytic, replace it with an electrolytic. It is what was designed in, tested extensively, and created the sound and performance that McIntosh provided and it wasn’t about saving a nickel because that wasn’t Engineering’s job.

Will certain boutique caps improve the sound? Likely not. Again, there were plenty of high-end caps around when your amp was built, if it made a difference McIntosh Engineers would have considered it. However designing an amplifier is not a bunch of little parts, it’s the entire amplifier. Replacing a handful of capacitors with goofy $30 caps doesn’t make the amplifier any better any more than replacing my toenails with those from a star quarterback’s makes me a star quarterback. There are many “Technicians” out there, some trained some self-taught, but few if any with EE degrees, and even fewer of those who designed audio amplifiers, and the number who worked on the design of your amplifier lowers this to zero.

Why does this matter? Just the ramblings of an old Engineer who’s a pompous crank? Maybe.

The reason is because when we designed a circuit, it went through iterations that started with a concept, then a specification, then designs and prototype builds, then tons of testing and breaking stuff, then more prototypes, them more pushing beyond limits to find the weak point, then pre-production builds, then the next revision, and eventually production. Once a few thousand went out there would be some tolerance stackup that causes a problem in the field or in validation testing / burn-in, and another revision is made (I did point out five changes to values in the MC2255’s production run that I know of) to improve the stability and/or performance. The real world doesn’t operate in a faraday cage, nor on laboratory AC power, it has people accidentally trip over a speaker wire and pull it out, etc.

Now a “Technician” goes in and replaces transistors with faster ones, capacitors with larger ones (or faster ones), etc. and who is doing all of the testing to ensure that 1) the SQ is as good or better, 2) the amplifier will be as stable if values drift, 3) he is not putting something dangerously close to oscillation or another failure (which might already have been found in the lab and might be the reason for the particular value), and 4) this magic component actually adds value?

Nobody. The Technician doesn’t understand more than basic design and theory at best, and wasn’t around to understand the reasons for the many component choices that the original Designers made. Ever heard “it works on paper”? An old Engineering joke, theory only gets you so far, experience and trials gets you the rest of the way.

So if you want, Nichicon Fine Gold are fine, really just pretty shrink-wrap on industry-standard caps from most testing and evaluation I’ve read but tends to increase the value of the finished job at minor cost, but I don’t drink the $30 capacitor Kool-Aid. Can an electrolytic to film-cap swap change the sound? In many places no, in some parts of the signal path maybe. Will it be better, or just different? I vote different, again film caps were around when your equipment was built, and they’re already used in the appropriate places.

Wow, coffee’s empty and time to become productive around here, sorry for the long rant but I’m sure that if you were able to ask the designer of your amplifier and preamp, they will tell you that they did a fine job and it lasted 40 years without a hiccup, hard to beat that.
 
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I’m also a (retired) degreed engineer, and pretty much agree with everything SatPt said. The only problem I see with this is that usually by thentime you remove and test a component, you may just as well replace it if that is in your wheelhouse. It makes little sense to reinstall a 40+ year old capacitor, UNLESS a suitable replacement is not reasonably obtained. Cost is subjective. I agree that boutique caps are a waste of money.

But it’s not all about value or increased unit worth. My experience & units are a 1900, 2105, 2205 & C33. The big cans in the amps are a typical example. Screwed in ones are easy to remove and replace. Harder to test properly. Replacements are expensive nowadays for all the usual reasons. But my time and peace of mind are worth more, personally. $90 for a pair of 41kuF 100V that fit right and are a quality product is expensive, sure, but even I was surprised to find they made a measurable difference. And now, I never have to worry about them again.

IMHO, every single multi can cap needs replacement. All the ones I opened up & replaced were all significantly drifted, had borderline ESR, and look like devils vomit on the inside. All were either easily replaced or restuffed. And again, actual voltage measured differences and peace of mind.

I can not specifically say that any one or pair of caps made a specific sonic difference because not only did I replace electrolytics but any nasty looking film caps (tropical fish, bumblebee etc) got replaced with polypropylene films. I found so many out of spec resistors (well beyond 10 or 20%), I started replacing any carbons in the audio path with metal films. The same with old noisy small signal transistors. This place is a goldmine for finding out “it wasn’t great in its day, and XYZ” is a cleaner, quieter replacement, and so far, I have not been lead astray at all. So the total sound is for sure different than when I started and obviously significantly improved.

How close to the original sound as designed? Who could possibly known that? That’s impossible to know. If it measures better in all parameters, runs cooler and sounds better, and the design intent is still intact, then that’s exactly what I want.
 
Best post I've read in quite awhile by SaturationPt. Well done and agree with your assessment. I, too, own vintage gear and when it's time to rebuild, stick to the parameters of the design and be complete with the approach - you'll get another 40 years... No use opening up the housing again in anything less than 40 years...

From a fellow engineer - disagree about being a pompous crank, rather we can be known to be strongly opinionated, a bit cynical, but mostly right (so say's my wife).
 
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