MC high and low output--a bit confused

[DrTebi]

Hello,

I am awaiting a Yamaha PX-3 this weekend, and I am thinking about trying out a new MC cartridge. I have heard great things about the Denon 103, but I am not sure if it will work with my pre-amp without a step-up transformer.

My pre-amp is a Nakamichi CA-5. It states the following in the manual:

Now, since the output of the Denon 103 is only 0.3mV, does that mean I cannot use it with the Nakamichi? What do I need to look for, what numbers do I need to match?

And then there are high output MC cartridges, like the Sumiko Blue Point 2, which states 2.5mV per channel. Would the Sumiko simply be connected to MM?

Any pointers would greatly be appreciated!

 

[Kingshead]

Both will work, and yes the HOMC would be connected through the MM input.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Use the MC input of the pre-amp for the Denon 103 and set the three way switch to 200 ohms. The sensitivity of 170uV (0.17mV) is the closest to the Denon's 0.3mV output.
Yes, the Sumiko would connect to the MM input.

 

[bangsezmax]

They aren't separate inputs -- it's a single phono input with switches rather inconveniently located on the back of the unit.

 

[rothwellaudio]

They aren't separate inputs -- it's a single phono input with switches rather inconveniently located on the back of the unit.

Sorry, my mistake.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Well with only one phono input, set the switches for the type of cartridge you are using. If you change cartridges, change switches as needed.

Sumiko BP2 MM position
Denon 103 MC position and use the 200Ω setting. you can also use the 100Ω setting and get a higher output into the phono stage, meaning the volume control will not be moved as high for the same volume.

Your preamp has 2.5mV MM input, 0.048mV MC input, 0.076mV MC input and 0.17mV MC input all switched on the back panel.

Cartridge output does not need to match the input level exactly. Let's take that 0.17mV input for example. You can run a cartridge with an output level of 0.17mV up to one that has an output of 1-2mV but not MM as this is an MC input. The idea is to match the gain needed to achieve output level of the preamp while matching the cartridge to the input characteristics (resistance and capacitance). This input does not overload until 11mV about 60 times the output level of the input sensitivity, so you will not be overdriving the input.

These resistance and capacitance numbers are on the preamp. The differences have an effect on the high frequency. You can try the 200Ω and 100Ω settings with the Denon and see if you hear that difference and whether you prefer one or the other.

 

[Balifly]

Hello,

I am awaiting a Yamaha PX-3 this weekend, and I am thinking about trying out a new MC cartridge. I have heard great things about the Denon 103, but I am not sure if it will work with my pre-amp without a step-up transformer.

The Denon DL-103 is rather low compliance - (5 x 10-6 cm/dyne).

May not sound all that great with the short linear tracking tone arm of the Yamaha PX-3.

Consider the Sumiko Blue Point 2 (15 x 10-6 cm/dyne) or the Denon DL-301 MKII (13 x 10-6 cm/dyne).

Wait for other linear tracking turn table owners to chime in.

 

[DrTebi]

Wow, I am overwhelmed by the amount of responses, thank you so much!

So it looks like my pre-amp can handle quite a range of MC cartridges, and MM cartridges as well.

Balifly mentioned low compliance, which is another term I have not yet understood. What are the differences between high and low compliance cartridges, and why would a low compliance cartridge not be a good match for a linear tracking turntable?

 

[bangsezmax]

It's a rather complex subject, but it has to do with the overall mass of the tonearm and the resonant frequency of the whole system . Stiffer cantilevers (ones with lower compliance) react better with tonearms with higher mass. Cantilevers that are less stiff (higher compliance) react better with tonearms with lower mass.

The tonearm database shows the Yamaha PX-3 has an effective mass of 17 grams, which is in the "medium mass" bucket. Optimally, the cartridge is designed for a heavier arm. But it might be able to handle that Denon just fine.

 

[DrTebi]

OK, I sort of get the idea... I will do a bit more research on other cartridges before I make a decision.

One of my biggest problems with my current TTs (Pro-ject RPM-5 and a Yamaha YP-B2) is sibilance. It depends a bit on the record, but at least on the inner tracks I have it almost all the time.

My current cartridges are an Audio Technica AT120E/T and a Shure V15MKII. The Shure's stylus I believe is pretty worn out. It might be a good idea to invest into a Jico stylus for the Shure rather than a MC cartridge (?).

Any thoughts on sibilance problems? I have tried many different settings/alignments etc., with no success. Worst offending album is Matt Bianco - Whose Side Are You On.

 

[bangsezmax]

Some records are just cut wrong (too hot). What VTF are you running them at?

 

[Balifly]

OK, I sort of get the idea... I will do a bit more research on other cartridges before I make a decision.

One of my biggest problems with my current TTs (Pro-ject RPM-5 and a Yamaha YP-B2) is sibilance. It depends a bit on the record, but at least on the inner tracks I have it almost all the time.

My current cartridges are an Audio Technica AT120E/T and a Shure V15MKII. The Shure's stylus I believe is pretty worn out. It might be a good idea to invest into a Jico stylus for the Shure rather than a MC cartridge (?).

Any thoughts on sibilance problems? I have tried many different settings/alignments etc., with no success. Worst offending album is Matt Bianco - Whose Side Are You On.

FYI, the Yamaha PX-3 was originally outfitted with the Yamaha MC-705 cartridge.

The Yamaha MC-705 was a re badge Audio Technica AT 3100E - 7.5 x 10-6cm/Dyne.

Use that as your baseline for lomc cartridge selection.

 

[DrTebi]

What VTF are you running them at?

I have tried both cartridges with their recommended VTF, and then also tried with ±1gr, and adjusted anti-skating accordingly. The results were pretty much the same.

It might be that the tonearm height is wrong for those cartridges. The Yamaha YP-B2 came with a Micro-Acoustics 2002-E Cartridge, which is quite a bit taller than the Shure and AT cartridge. But I haven't found a way to adjust the tonearm height on the Yamaha YP-B2.

 

[DrTebi]

FYI, the Yamaha PX-3 was originally outfitted with the Yamaha MC-705 cartridge.

The Yamaha MC-705 was a re badge Audio Technica AT 3100E - 7.5 x 10-6cm/Dyne.

Use that as your baseline for lomc cartridge selection.

I have been looking at a few cartridges through the database at vinylengine.com. The database listings have a convenient button in the Dynamic Compliance field that redirects to a Cartridge Resonance Evaluator page with a chart showing tonearm effective mass and cartridge mass.
Interesting is, that the Audio Technica AT 3100E would not fit well according to that chart... assuming that the effective tonearm mass of the PX-3 is 17g:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridg...io Technica+AT-3100&cm=7&dc=7.5&search=search

Am I reading that wrong? Shouldn't the best resonance value be at 8-11 Hz? For the AT 3100E it would be 12 Hz. That's close enough I guess, and maybe I am getting to scientific here... but I thought using those charts was a good way to find a cartridge that matches well to the PX-3.

 

[Tedrick]

I have been looking at a few cartridges through the database at vinylengine.com. The database listings have a convenient button in the Dynamic Compliance field that redirects to a Cartridge Resonance Evaluator page with a chart showing tonearm effective mass and cartridge mass.
Interesting is, that the Audio Technica AT 3100E would not fit well according to that chart... assuming that the effective tonearm mass of the PX-3 is 17g:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Audio Technica+AT-3100&cm=7&dc=7.5&search=search

Am I reading that wrong? Shouldn't the best resonance value be at 8-11 Hz? For the AT 3100E it would be 12 Hz. That's close enough I guess, and maybe I am getting to scientific here... but I thought using those charts was a good way to find a cartridge that matches well to the PX-3.

Not to make things even more confusing, but AT reports their cartridge compliance at 100 Hz instead of the more widely used 10 Hz standard. There is no direct conversion, but in general 10 Hz compliance will be 1.5-2x higher than 100 Hz compliance. Thus, using an estimated 10 Hz compliance of 15, an effective tonearm mass of 17 g, and a cartridge + hardware mass of 8 g gives an estimated resonance frequency of 8 Hz, which is within the preferred range.

 

[DrTebi]

Not to make things even more confusing, but AT reports their cartridge compliance at 100 Hz instead of the more widely used 10 Hz standard. There is no direct conversion, but in general 10 Hz compliance will be 1.5-2x higher than 100 Hz compliance. Thus, using an estimated 10 Hz compliance of 15, an effective tonearm mass of 17 g, and a cartridge + hardware mass of 8 g gives an estimated resonance frequency of 8 Hz, which is within the preferred range.

It does make it more complicated, but then again... the AT 3100E does not seem to be in production anymore, so I don't believe I will be getting that cartridge.

The two most promising MC cartridges I have found so far are:
Denon DL-301MK2
Sumiko Blue Point II

Of these, I believe I will go for the Denon, it's a bit cheaper, and I am curious about that Denon sound...

Do these two cartridges choice make sense for the Yamaha PX-3?

 

[Freddymac2]

Have you critically cleaned the stylus on your cartridges. The Sure I had never gave me a problem with sibilants.
What do you use to set overhang on your turntables. spacers can change your VTA.

 

[DrTebi]

Have you critically cleaned the stylus on your cartridges. The Sure I had never gave me a problem with sibilants.
What do you use to set overhang on your turntables. spacers can change your VTA.

To tell you the truth, I haven't figured out how to set the overhang at all. Any pointers would be appreciated. I am only using the Yamaha YP-B2 right now.

Is there anything else besides using a brush to clean the stylus? Sorry, still a bit green on the topic of proper TT setup...