MC verses MM
- Thread starter davis419b
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Nice turntable and cartridge.
(1) MC's have less output than an MM and may require a MC specific preamp, which is better depends on who you ask.
(2) If you don't have a phono input on your amp, you will need a phono preamp.
(3) If you have a phono function in your amp and your tuner and phono play at a comparable volume, then go to Wikipedia and search "loudness wars".
(4) If #2 & 3 aren't the answer, ask again but give a description of your other equipment.
(1) MC's have less output than an MM and may require a MC specific preamp, which is better depends on who you ask.
(2) If you don't have a phono input on your amp, you will need a phono preamp.
(3) If you have a phono function in your amp and your tuner and phono play at a comparable volume, then go to Wikipedia and search "loudness wars".
(4) If #2 & 3 aren't the answer, ask again but give a description of your other equipment.
Zodia
Super Member
Wait...MC carts have lower output than MM?
So, why is it that when I plug in my MM to the MC input, the sound is all muddy and considerably lower ( volume wise) than the MM input?
Could it be that my preamp MC input is buster?
Or am I missing something here? I am a complete noob when it comes to cart differences, and other electronic lingo.
So excuse me for the dumb question.
So, why is it that when I plug in my MM to the MC input, the sound is all muddy and considerably lower ( volume wise) than the MM input?
Could it be that my preamp MC input is buster?
Or am I missing something here? I am a complete noob when it comes to cart differences, and other electronic lingo.
So excuse me for the dumb question.
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guiller
Toscaninichus Australis
Here there is a basic introduction to the different cartridge types: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_cartridge
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
MM cartridges need the 47k Ohm load that is found on the MM input. The MC input would ordinarily have more gain but would cause the muddy sound you're hearing with a MM cartridge. What preamp do you have?
Jon_Logan
Addicted Member
Wait...MC carts have lower output than MM?
So, why is it that when I plug in my MM to the MC input, the sound is all muddy and considerably lower ( volume wise) than the MM input?
The output impedance of the typical MC cartridge is MUCH lower than it's MM counterpart. When using a MM or MC, the signal line has to be appropriately terminated by a resistor to flatten the frequency response. For a MM cartridge, the resistor value is typically ~47kohm. For a MC cartridge, it is typically 10~100 ohms. If you plug your MC cartridge into a MC input phono stage, the 10~100 ohm resistor may be terminating the input. If you plug in a MM cartridge with a source impedance of ~ 47kohms, it will get the hell loaded out of it, making it sound terrible if you get any output at all.
One really nice thing about low impedance MC cartridges, you can connect almost any kind of interconnect wire and not suffer the capacitance and length considerations that you need with MM cartridges.
Zodia
Super Member
I have the NAD pp2, when i first got , i plugged the TT to the MC input, just to see how it would sound, out of pure curiosity, and found it to sound terrible no treble at all, just plain yucky,
but i just got the explanation i was looking for.
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Good explanation, thank you. :thmbsp:
MC is not always lower output than MM.
HOMC can be in same level or even higher than MM.
One advantage of MC and in particular LOMC is reproduction of finer details in the sound.
"dolph"
HOMC can be in same level or even higher than MM.
One advantage of MC and in particular LOMC is reproduction of finer details in the sound.
"dolph"
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
Maybe on the PP2 the gain is dependent on the MM/MC slide switch on the back? According to NAD's spec's the MC gain is 60 dB and the MM is 35 dB.
http://nadelectronics.com/content/100419104747-NAD_PP2.pdf
http://nadelectronics.com/content/100419104747-NAD_PP2.pdf
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
This thread was jacked!
davis419b is the OP! So anyway...It's normal for the CD player to have more output than the cartridge and phono stage. My opinion is that it's best to just live with that. Adjustable phono preamps can help you match it up, but you might get high distortion.
Back To The Subject Of The Thread...
Since you asked about the sounds of the two, in general a MC cartridge will have better transients and more detailed highs than a MM. The moving mass of a MC cartridge is lower therefore it can accelerate quicker. In general MC cartridges have lower outputs than MM cartridges. Today there is a generation of high output MC cartridges that are usually slightly lower output than a MM cartridge. Therefore most, not all MC cartridges need either a step up transformer (SUT) designed for the output and impedance of the cartridge or an adjustable gain adjustable input impedance pre-preamplifier that increases the output level without adding substantial noise.
Most MC cartridges are also higher mass than MM cartridges and therefore they mate best with different arms.
Just for yucks, Joe Grado invented MC cartridges and his cartridges are moving iron, MI.
I hope this helps.
Since you asked about the sounds of the two, in general a MC cartridge will have better transients and more detailed highs than a MM. The moving mass of a MC cartridge is lower therefore it can accelerate quicker. In general MC cartridges have lower outputs than MM cartridges. Today there is a generation of high output MC cartridges that are usually slightly lower output than a MM cartridge. Therefore most, not all MC cartridges need either a step up transformer (SUT) designed for the output and impedance of the cartridge or an adjustable gain adjustable input impedance pre-preamplifier that increases the output level without adding substantial noise.
Most MC cartridges are also higher mass than MM cartridges and therefore they mate best with different arms.
Just for yucks, Joe Grado invented MC cartridges and his cartridges are moving iron, MI.
I hope this helps.
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guiller
Toscaninichus Australis
Interesting remark. I took it for granted that Ortofon was the inventor MC carts, but according to the Wikipedia Ortofon was rather the early promoter of them:
The firm pioneered the use of moving coil technology in phonograph equipment; the first cutting head based on this technology was introduced in 1945.[2] Ortofon's first moving coil magnetic cartridge, the AB model,[3] was launched in 1948, and similar variations of that product are still manufactured today due to demand from enthusiasts
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davis419b
Active Member
This thread was jacked!
Its OK to jack this thread ! An answer to someone elses question is also info for me as I dont know the right questions to ask yet but learning. My preamp is a Holfi NB2 Signature Edition. It came from the factory set up for MC with gain adjustments from 0 to -9db. It had to be set to MM which has no gain adjustments.
Some basics are needed here. The phono stage (internal or external) does a couple of things. It applies the RIAA "decompression" curve to the signal from the cartridge/stylus, and it applies gain or amplification (signal multiplication). The cartridge takes the movement of the stylus and generates a small current and voltage.
If you add these two together, you have the signal going down stream to the main amplifier section of your audio system. So lets say a CD player sends out a 5 volt signal (average) to the main amp section and you get a volume of X. Lets say you have a Stanton cartridge and it sends out a signal of 5mV from the TT (not uncommon, but higher than your AT) - that is a signal 1000 times smaller than the CD Player. Your phono stage needs to make that up to come to equal volume on the output - X.
Most phono stages have gain ratios like 40, 60, or maybe 100 to 1 for high end MC stages. That still leaves you down a factor of 10~20. A factor of 10 is -1dB of volume if my old math is right (dB is a logarithmic scale). If you fed that same phono stage with a cartridge signal of 1mV (not uncommon for Moving Coils), your are now down 1/5000th of the CD Player signal to the phono section and maybe 100~200th to amplifier.
Point is, the phono stage has a critical role, get the signal up to somewhere near that of the other components. But it's only a multiplier. It needs a good signal coming in from the cartridge. The smaller the signal, the more critical the phono stage is. Moving coils require very well designed and built gain stages on the phono amp. Usually not the sort of thing you find in every day run-of-the-mill receivers.
Yeah sure, you can get reasonable MC phono stages in Mac's and most of the better high end receivers, but they don't really start to shine until you have gotten into the $500~$1000 range for the phono stage alone. And since the output is dependent on the signal coming in from the cartridge to begin with, you either need to match the phono stage to the cartridge as a pair, or get one with selectable gain like say this: http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=5583
A hot MM cartridge like some DJ units will put out a signal in excess of 5mV. But 5mV is the running standard for calculating gain for MM stages. Most MC cartridges put out on the order on 1mV or less (HOMC's, which are a compromise are like 2mV). At 5mV, a MM stage will still be slightly behind the TAPE or CD output going through the main amp. It's tradition to keep the phono section slightly quieter as protection against older cartridges with 6~8mV signals over-driving the system (won't happen on modern gear) and accidental needle drops from blowing speakers.
So, to get an equal volume to your other gear you need a strong signal like 5mV coming in from the TT/cartridge and you need plenty of gain in the phono like the primary and 45-75, maybe up to 100 on final. Most of us don't try to match volumes exactly, but it can be done. One problem is that these high gain stages have their own inherent risk of adding unwanted signals line line hum, hiss and such and they'll pump that right along with the music.
If you want equal volumes across the board, get an external phono stage with selectable gain settings and match it to your cartridges
If you add these two together, you have the signal going down stream to the main amplifier section of your audio system. So lets say a CD player sends out a 5 volt signal (average) to the main amp section and you get a volume of X. Lets say you have a Stanton cartridge and it sends out a signal of 5mV from the TT (not uncommon, but higher than your AT) - that is a signal 1000 times smaller than the CD Player. Your phono stage needs to make that up to come to equal volume on the output - X.
Most phono stages have gain ratios like 40, 60, or maybe 100 to 1 for high end MC stages. That still leaves you down a factor of 10~20. A factor of 10 is -1dB of volume if my old math is right (dB is a logarithmic scale). If you fed that same phono stage with a cartridge signal of 1mV (not uncommon for Moving Coils), your are now down 1/5000th of the CD Player signal to the phono section and maybe 100~200th to amplifier.
Point is, the phono stage has a critical role, get the signal up to somewhere near that of the other components. But it's only a multiplier. It needs a good signal coming in from the cartridge. The smaller the signal, the more critical the phono stage is. Moving coils require very well designed and built gain stages on the phono amp. Usually not the sort of thing you find in every day run-of-the-mill receivers.
Yeah sure, you can get reasonable MC phono stages in Mac's and most of the better high end receivers, but they don't really start to shine until you have gotten into the $500~$1000 range for the phono stage alone. And since the output is dependent on the signal coming in from the cartridge to begin with, you either need to match the phono stage to the cartridge as a pair, or get one with selectable gain like say this: http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=5583
A hot MM cartridge like some DJ units will put out a signal in excess of 5mV. But 5mV is the running standard for calculating gain for MM stages. Most MC cartridges put out on the order on 1mV or less (HOMC's, which are a compromise are like 2mV). At 5mV, a MM stage will still be slightly behind the TAPE or CD output going through the main amp. It's tradition to keep the phono section slightly quieter as protection against older cartridges with 6~8mV signals over-driving the system (won't happen on modern gear) and accidental needle drops from blowing speakers.
So, to get an equal volume to your other gear you need a strong signal like 5mV coming in from the TT/cartridge and you need plenty of gain in the phono like the primary and 45-75, maybe up to 100 on final. Most of us don't try to match volumes exactly, but it can be done. One problem is that these high gain stages have their own inherent risk of adding unwanted signals line line hum, hiss and such and they'll pump that right along with the music.
If you want equal volumes across the board, get an external phono stage with selectable gain settings and match it to your cartridges
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davis419b
Active Member
Hey Broc, thanks for the explanation. I believe the AT cartridge is 2.7mv. The lower output is not a problem it just made me feel I was getting less music when I had to turn it uo to get the volume level to what I normally listen to. I had another listening session late last night and I had to keep the volume low and it seem to really shine over the cd at that level, it was very nice.
That AT is the same voltage signal range as say a Denon DL160. If your system can work with the signal you currently have, I suggest you try a DL160 as an intro to Moving Coils. It should be about the same volume and will give you an intro to the moving coil sound.
Not pushing, but if you are interested in doing this, PM me. I have a slightly used DL160 not doing anything
Not pushing, but if you are interested in doing this, PM me. I have a slightly used DL160 not doing anything
Dr. Ear
Super Member
This you have to explain. There is no technical evidence for detail reproduction being a matter of the generator principle. I disagree. In my mixed MM and MC cartridge collection the best reproduction of fine details is audible with an AT-150MLX. This is true with different phono stages.
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
You might experience an exception in practice, but conceptually it's true. The lesser moving mass is at least in theory more capable of tracking subtle details.
lini
just me...
BL: Apart from home cdps usually rather being ~ 2 V, seems like you'd need a little brushing up on your Dezibel related maths, man! 
For the average MM stage you can usually expect a gain of ~ 35 - 40 dB, which already equals a voltage gain factor of ~ 55 - 100. For MC it's typically some 20 dB more (= factor 10 more or factor ~ 550 - 1000 in total).
I.e., for a typical MM with some 5 mV a usual phono stage would produce ~ 12 to 17 dB less compared to the cdp - however, that's only an approximation, 'cause one can't quite compare vinyl and cd there for several reasons.
Shall I go into detail (question not directed to you in particular, BL, as I'd imagine you might already know...)?
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
For the average MM stage you can usually expect a gain of ~ 35 - 40 dB, which already equals a voltage gain factor of ~ 55 - 100. For MC it's typically some 20 dB more (= factor 10 more or factor ~ 550 - 1000 in total).I.e., for a typical MM with some 5 mV a usual phono stage would produce ~ 12 to 17 dB less compared to the cdp - however, that's only an approximation, 'cause one can't quite compare vinyl and cd there for several reasons.
Shall I go into detail (question not directed to you in particular, BL, as I'd imagine you might already know...)?
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
There's no magic to this.
The reason is simply that there is much less weight at the end of the cantilever.
Try audition and compare between some non-entry level or lower mid class cartridges.
Don't expect to hear any difference worth documenting anything to your experience at that level you'rre describing.
The better detailing in LOMC is very well known and accepted phenomenon but don't forget that going down the "LOMC road" also will demand a high quality phono stage for the purpose.
"dolph"
