MC verses MM

[Dr. Ear]

There's no magic to this.

The reason is simply that there is much less weight at the end of the cantilever.

Try audition and compare between some non-entry level or lower mid class cartridges.
Don't expect to hear any difference worth documenting anything to your experience at that level you'rre describing.

The better detailing in LOMC is very well known and accepted phenomenon but don't forget that going down the "LOMC road" also will demand a high quality phono stage for the purpose.

"dolph"

The moving mass also depends on the weight of the stylus and the cantilever.
BTW, the AT-150MLX is at the price absolutely no entry level cartridge. I compared it with my AT-33PTG sharing the same stylus and cantilever.
My Ortofon Rondo Bronze and my friends Benz are both much less detailed than the AT's (but have better bass and a warmer sound).
In our experience is it much harder to find a good phono stage that does not sounds thin with a good MM cart than an appropriate MC stage. The story about better details of MC's is simply not true and may be a marketing argument to sell this more expensive items.

 

[niklasthedol]

The moving mass also depends on the weight of the stylus and the cantilever.
BTW, the AT-150MLX is at the price absolutely no entry level cartridge. I compared it with my AT-33PTG sharing the same stylus and cantilever.
My Ortofon Rondo Bronze and my friends Benz are both much less detailed than the AT's (but have better bass and a warmer sound).
In our experience is it much harder to find a good phono stage that does not sounds thin with a good MM cart than an appropriate MC stage. The story about better details of MC's is simply not true and may be a marketing argument to sell this more expensive items.

I'm sorry you did not succeed in experiencing what most other people paying what it takes already know.
I don't really care if you rigidly and unfaithful claim it's not true.
It is.

"dolph"

 

[lini]

You might experience an exception in practice, but conceptually it's true. The lesser moving mass is at least in theory more capable of tracking subtle details.

The concept is true, but that doesn't mean you'll necessarily get lower ETM with MCs compared to MMs or MIs. Actually, I'd rather think the main advantage of MCs is their very low internal inductance, so the electrical resonance and associated phase shift are pretty much out of the way.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[lini]

(...) I don't really care if you rigidly and unfaithful claim it's not true.
It is.

Maybe he's just better in loading MMs correctly? Anyway, as for unfaithful claims: How about backing up your claim with some ETM specs?

Gretings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[jrtrent]

The moving mass also depends on the weight of the stylus and the cantilever.

Good point. Very few manufacturers publish specifications for effective tip mass; even Ortofon, who used to, doesn't seem to have that information available anymore. Looking at Ortofon literature from a few years ago, their LOMC types ranged between .22 and .5 mg. Nine of the fourteen LOMC's listed were from .3 to .5 mg, the same range as their OM Super line of MM's (with both the OM40 and OM30 having an effective tip mass of .3 mg).

One difference between moving magnets and moving coils is that the latter are generally acknowledged to have significantly rising top ends in their frequency balance (e.g., Positive Feedback writes, " . . . if you play many cartridges through many tone-arms, you'll find that some cartridges have personalities of their own which mounting them in various tone-arms does not change much. We say, "Most moving coil cartridges have a rising high-end." We arrive at this after listening and measuring many of them."). This could account, at least in part, for the perception that moving coil cartridges have better resolution of fine details.

 

[niklasthedol]

Maybe he's just better in loading MMs correctly? Anyway, as for unfaithful claims: How about backing up your claim with some ETM specs?

Gretings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

I'm in no need of backing up anything.

"dolph"

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

Good point. Very few manufacturers publish specifications for effective tip mass; even Ortofon, who used to, doesn't seem to have that information available anymore. Looking at Ortofon literature from a few years ago, their LOMC types ranged between .22 and .5 mg. Nine of the fourteen LOMC's listed were from .3 to .5 mg, the same range as their OM Super line of MM's (with both the OM40 and OM30 having an effective tip mass of .3 mg).

One difference between moving magnets and moving coils is that the latter are generally acknowledged to have significantly rising top ends in their frequency balance (e.g., Positive Feedback writes, " . . . if you play many cartridges through many tone-arms, you'll find that some cartridges have personalities of their own which mounting them in various tone-arms does not change much. We say, "Most moving coil cartridges have a rising high-end." We arrive at this after listening and measuring many of them."). This could account, at least in part, for the perception that moving coil cartridges have better resolution of fine details.

Then perhaps you could judge an AT cartridge similarly.

 

[niklasthedol]

Why don't people just accept that more money can buy better sounding cartridges and that expensive cartridges shows out mainly to be LOMC types.

Facts!

Make some research guys instead of bashing each others heads.
Internet is in front of you.
Go out and listen after your research.

"dolph"

 

[Jon_Logan]

Why don't people just accept that more money can buy better sounding cartridges and that expensive cartridges shows out mainly to be LOMC types.

Facts!

Make some research guys instead of bashing each others heads.
Internet is in front of you.
Go out and listen after your research.

"dolph"

Dolph said the theory he believes is a fact. (again) I think that pretty much makes it a fact. What else do you believe Dolph?

 

[niklasthedol]

Dolph said the theory he believes is a fact. (again) I think that pretty much makes it a fact. What else do you believe Dolph?

I believe meatballs are great and taste best in Scandinavia.

Now what conspiracy plot can you put that into and throw back at me as the best hidden personal attack?

"dolph"

 

[jrtrent]

Then perhaps you could judge an AT cartridge similarly.

Perhaps so; I've always found the AT house sound a bit bright for my tastes (preferring Stanton and Grado). The link below is to an older article that has been referenced in these forums before, but it's still an interesting read. The author points out that the AT ML-170 is "slightly lighter and brighter than the Stanton," but not to the same degree as the AT OC9 moving coil, concluding, "The OC9 is a bargain among moving coils. But, if I were you, I would compare it not only to other moving coils but also to Audio Technica's other premium cartridge, the ATML-170. Let your ears be your guide, along with your memory of live music. I am betting you will go for the ATML-170 over the moving coils, and live happily ever after."
http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html

 

[davis419b]

Dolph, Since you are from Denmark what do you think of the Holfi pre NB2 signature series?

 

[vinyl1]

Dolph is right, particularly about the really good stuff. If you install a cartridge in the $3000-5000 range on the appropriate turntable with matching electronics, you really will hear much more detail. They do all sound different, so you will have to pick one to match your taste. Both the Shelter Harmonix and the Benz Ruby sound good to me, but there are many others.

These are much too expensive for most guys here to use, but that is not the issue under discussion.

 

[niklasthedol]

Dolph, Since you are from Denmark what do you think of the Holfi pre NB2 signature series?

I am afraid I only heard this pre once quite a few years ago.
The set-up was, as far as I remember, A Norwegian Doxa 70 sig, and some Audiovector Helios 275 speakers with the Holfi in between.

No memory of the source but that was so great sounding that I almost bought the Doxa.
;-)
It was power amp I was after at that time.

But Holfi was sold to some Germans I think.

"dolph"

 

[lini]

I'm in no need of backing up anything.

You rather should, if you call contradictory statements unfaithful. Especially when available ETM specs rather raise the suspicion, that your pet theory about lower moving mass might not be correct at all.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[HypnoToad]

I had two turntables side by side one with a Goldring 1012 GX MM cart and the other with a Denon DL-110 HOMC cart.

The MM had what I call a in your face wall of sound, the MC had a much gentler more detailed sound.

I prefer the sound of MC carts for their detail, some prefer MM for their forwardness.

 

[Dynacophil]

All HO MC I had were lower output than all - even low - MM Carts I Have, which is a lot of ~25 right now.
Wich HO MC has a higher output then a mean MM?

MC is not always lower output than MM.
HOMC can be in same level or even higher than MM.

One advantage of MC and in particular LOMC is reproduction of finer details in the sound.

"dolph"

 

[Dr Tinear]

Dolph is on the right track, but IMO he didn't go quite far enough. Effective tip mass is an important parameter in designing a cartridge for detail resolution, but the mounting of the stylus and the design and materials used in the cantilever also have a significant effect. Ideally the cantilever should transmit the motion of the stylus to the generating system without adding or subtracting anything. All practical cantilevers contribute inertia to the system and have a set of resonant frequencies, determined by the materials and the shape, that can color the sound. Using a material with a high Young's Modulus (ratio of stiffness to mass) helps, but adds cost to the cartridge because such materials are generally more expensive and harder to work than aluminum.

 

[guiller]

Using a material with a high Young's Modulus (ratio of stiffness to mass) helps, but adds cost to the cartridge because such materials are generally more expensive and harder to work than aluminum.

I would also add that MC carts also seem to demand more manual precision work (e.g, the winding of the coil itself) and this implies higher production costs. Personally, once I went into the world of LOMC, I never looked back. At least when listening to classical music (the type of music I listen to all the time), I find myself much more at home listening to any of the low to medium priced LOMCs, even when I also had MM carts of comparable price range

 

[jrtrent]

All HO MC I had were lower output than all - even low - MM Carts I Have, which is a lot of ~25 right now.
Wich HO MC has a higher output then a mean MM?

There are some lower output moving magnets, such as the Stanton 681EEE (well, moving iron, but in an MC vs. MM discussion, I'd lump it with the latter) and Sumiko Black Pearl which are both rated at 2.5mV. Ortofon's Turbo series of HOMC cartridges are rated at 3.3 mV. My Grado Statement Platinum1 is also a lower output, non moving coil rated at 0.5 mV.