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McIntosh guy buys his first Krell . . .

Yes, XLR. LOMC into a SUT built into the preamp. There is a tad bit of hum with that arrangement at high volume settings - so when using the Krell, that's omnipresent.

SP - I have (2) 2500s - in the pic above. My Altecs are the 9846-8A with the 411-8A 15s ... they play flat into the 20s in the right room.
 
damacman said:
Yes, XLR. LOMC into a SUT built into the preamp. There is a tad bit of hum with that arrangement at high volume settings - so when using the Krell, that's omnipresent.

SP - I have (2) 2500s - in the pic above. My Altecs are the 9846-8A with the 411-8A 15s ... they play flat into the 20s in the right room.
Click to expand...

Reckon like any system, it comes down to the sum of the components. Odd that somehow your Mac PreAmp seems to be hitting the Krell Amp in a weak fashion? Hmmm? I would've never thought there might've been any issues along those lines, that Mac probably will work well with anything, nothing strangely particular-fussy with their products.

Sure, maybe in a perfect world, the KSA 300S would like to see a Krell KRC, or KRC-HR before it. The last I mention is a beautiful piece of gear. Still, I am a lover of at least having some adjustability with some basic tone controls, and maybe one day myself, I'd like seeing some form of "C-5X" Mac Preamp in my system.

As for the Phono Stage, and seemingly being a little short-weak, don't know what to say about that? Again, the Mac Pre may not be optimal for whatever reasons, and or the phono stage within? Is there not enough gain? What output MC are you using?

Have any other PreAmps you can insert to try? Many times, the Pre has a greater impact of overall sound than the Amp.

Phono Stages. Maybe time to go full external? Do I see a nice Sutherland in your future? Something like the 20/20?

Your comments and discrepancies seem minor, but I know you'd perhaps like calling the Krell a keeper.
Then again, who knows, 2 weeks from now you might place it up for sale? **** happens. LOL
 
are you sure the hum in the phono stage isn't something wrong with the c200? I have no hum in my c50
 
markd51 said:
...

Not sure how this gain effects since you probably have the Turntable connected to the pre-amp?
Click to expand...

Amplifer gain affects the output of the amp relative to the input from the preamp.

In a quick assessment, the Krell gain is ~3dB less than the MC2500 or MC2600 if they are set to the lower input sensitivity (higher number, 2.5V or something like that). That means the MC amps will play a little louder at any given setting of the preamp (or, that you'd have to turn the knob a bit more for the Krell to play at same volume.

That effect would be even more exaggerated if the MC amps were set to the high sensitivity setting (0.75V or maybe 1.4V?).

If the phono output is somewhat low due to cartridge output and phonostage gain, such that its necessary or desirsble to operate the MC amps at their high sensitivitiy position to achieve acceptable volume level, the system might struggle to provide similar output from the Krell due to its inherently lower gain.
 
Don't worry guys, this isn't my first rodeo with a new amplifier. After I get a bit more seat time with it, I'll report back.

The C200 has an on-board Ortofon silver wire SUT. It has a slight bit of perceptible hum from the listening position between songs at volume settings north of "75" on the C200 with the MC2600s. This warrants resolve. Cartridge is an Ortofon Per Windfeld - one of a handful of cartridges that match up ideally with this SUT, according to Ortofon. I've really enjoyed it.

The lower gain of the Krell simply amplifies (ok, that was bad) the problem. The C200 has no problem driving the Krell whatsoever.
 
markd51 said:
Reckon like any system, it comes down to the sum of the components. Odd that somehow your Mac PreAmp seems to be hitting the Krell Amp in a weak fashion? Hmmm? I would've never thought there might've been any issues along those lines, that Mac probably will work well with anything, nothing strangely particular-fussy with their products.
Click to expand...
I can understand that certain components don't quite have that "synergy" when placed together. At our inaugural SoCal AK get-together, AKer Jeff T brought his hand built SET amp and Altec 15 speakers and we hooked his amp up to my McIntosh C32 preamp. We were expecting magic, but they did not match up well at all. The music was very fatiguing to the ears after a short time of listening. So we swapped out the C32 and used the preamp section of AKer HBTim's Pioneer SX1010 instead. It was like night and day, music was clearer and non-fatiguing. We hooked the C32 back up to the MC2500 and that combo sang as great as it had before. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it, the SX1010 was just a better match for the tube amp.
 
^^. There is definitely some truth to that. I have a couple other preamps that I can try with the Krell. I have also not tried the RCA connections between the C200 and Krell.

I've got plenty to do here. And yes, I bought the Krell to keep so I'd like to hear it shine as Dan intended.
 
damacman said:
. . .The C200 has an on-board Ortofon silver wire SUT. It has a slight bit of perceptible hum from the listening position between songs at volume settings north of "75" on the C200 with the MC2600s. . .

The lower gain of the Krell simply amplifies (ok, that was bad) the problem. The C200 has no problem driving the Krell whatsoever.
Click to expand...

The lower gain of the Krell should not affect the S/N ration of the phono front end up to the C200 volume control. In fact, the lower Krell gain will lower (whatever) noise is generated between the C200 volume control and the Krell inputs resulting in over all less noise for a given signal level at the speakers (assuming the MC and Krell have the same S/N). So if you're hearing more hum with the Krell, either you are turning the total system gain up more than with the MC amps at "75" such that the signal would also be louder (but S/N is the same) or the Krell is adding significant (audible) hum to the mix (easy to check). Or I just did not read your description properly. (I guess it's possible that some Krell power supply diode switching noise could be radiating into the C200 SUT / phono stage increasing the hum level there.)
 
As the Krell has lower gain, a higher volume setting is required to achieve the same loudness as the MC2600s. Therein lies the problem.
 
Please keep us filled in on any progress, and changes.

I almost went a similar route about 8 years ago, When I spotted an entire mint low hour Krell system for sale on Audiogon.

The price was a mere $13K, for a flawless 100 hour old Krell FPB-600 Amp, KRC-HR PreAmp, and KPS-20 CD Player.
What a combo, and I knew it was! Peanuts! But money was a bit "tight" at that specific time, I tried a low ball offer for a couple $K off, and was a no go.

I would've saved some good money with my winter heating bills for sure, but God forbid if that Amp ever went down, and now I have to find someone to fix that monster? I sure wasn't savoring the idea of a possible future trip back to Krell for repairs.

I probably was factoring those unforeseen costs when I made my lowish offer. but I'd say though, that particular system was probably worth every single penny of that $13K.
 
markd51 said:
Please keep us filled in on any progress, and changes.

I almost went a similar route about 8 years ago, When I spotted an entire mint low hour Krell system for sale on Audiogon.

The price was a mere $13K, for a flawless 100 hour old Krell FPB-600 Amp, KRC-HR PreAmp, and KPS-20 CD Player.
What a combo, and I knew it was! Peanuts! But money was a bit "tight" at that specific time, I tried a low ball offer for a couple $K off, and was a no go.

I would've saved some good money with my winter heating bills for sure, but God forbid if that Amp ever went down, and now I have to find someone to fix that monster? I sure wasn't savoring the idea of a possible future trip back to Krell for repairs.

I probably was factoring those unforeseen costs when I made my lowish offer. but I'd say though, that particular system was probably worth every single penny of that $13K.
Click to expand...
You know I looked long at hard at the FPB-600! Like I need 600wpc . . . sheesh . . . says the guy who runs MC2600s bridged . . .
 
damacman said:
You know I looked long at hard at the FPB-600! Like I need 600wpc . . . sheesh . . . says the guy who runs MC2600s bridged . . .
Click to expand...

I knew little about Krell at the time, never heard anything by them until one day at an older AV Store in Sarasota Fla, that was called Sound Advice.

I walked in there one afternoon with a 2" stack of some of my very best CDs that I brought with to Fla on Vacation. A couple days before I had eyed that killer Krell System in their best listening room, and I had to hear this system with music I knew.

And it was the exact same system I describe earlier, the FPB600, KRC-HR, KPS-20i. Running out to 2 B&W 801 Series III, on Sound Anchor Stands.

The Salesman handed me the 2 remotes, walked out, and closed the door behind him.

Two CD's that went to the top of the heap, and what was played first. MOFI Santana Abraxas. Singing Winds-Black Magic Woman-Oye Como Va. Dauym. I parked my ass on the nice Sofa, and thought to myself "hmm, this room sounds like it has some good room treatments, and good set up, I was immersed in such a great soundstage, right in the so balanced sweet spot.

Up next, another MOFI 24ct, Emerson Lake and Palmer "Trilogy" The two tracks, "The Endless Enigma:, then leading into "From the Beginning", oh man!
About a 1/4th of the way through the Endless Enigma, another fella walked in, and all of a sudden he was totally frozen in spot in the middle of the room, like a frikken Twilight eposide! He then, after about 30 seconds moved off to the side, probably in consideration of me auditioning this system.

He motioned to me with hands and lips like a deaf-dumb man about 1/2 way through, and in about 105-108db sound levels in that room, what was playing? I handed him the ELP Jewel Case.

In my main system, I'm basically running two bought new Bryston 7BSST2 Monoblocks going into two mint JBL 4430 Monitors, and I have to honestly say that my system, for overall sonics sort of pales in comparison to that Krell System I heard that day.

Perhaps the one word that I can think of, and comes to mind at this moment to describe, is "authoritive!"
Another later thought of a description would also be "nice tone".
 
damacman said:
I haven't opened the box yet . . . I know @kevzep would be like . . .dude!

Speakers are either Altec Barcelona or McIntosh XRT22 . . . Sources are an RX-505, TU-9900, RT-909, 5050 B2 II, UDP-205, VPI Avenger, or Pioneer PD-T07 . . .

I may be done . . . lol.
Click to expand...
I didn't open my Mc452 box, for 3 days. (I think) Moving heavy, expensive objects, requires some planning. :whip:
 
damacman said:
You know I looked long at hard at the FPB-600! Like I need 600wpc . . . sheesh . . . says the guy who runs MC2600s bridged . . .
Click to expand...

I have that 600 watts per channel, in fact just a small tad better, 674/676 watts 8 ohms per my factory spec sheet with the Amps, Bryston 7BSST2.

There's probably many weak-deficient, and problem areas in my system, but maybe perhaps the Brystons are the least of such.

Another $20K tossed in, yeah, that might oughta do it,..... somewhat.
 
I think all too often in this hobby, we get a bit caught up in the if I only had that XXX instead of the one I have syndrome. This is glorified by forums as this one and reviewers, who seem to have an endless stream of top-flight gear cycle through their living rooms. I wonder if any of those guys has actually been happy with their system for any length of time or if the idea of the next greatest thing may be nirvana precludes that.

I began my journey with big McIntosh power amps in about 1994 for one simple reason - my Carver **** couldn't play for hours on end during house parties. Enter the MC2200/MC2300 pair (active 2.1) that I migrated to. Problem solved. I went from folks leaving when the system shut off to folks having to be told to GTFO as the cops showed up. Ah, to be in my 20s again . . .

Along the way, I began to develop a real appreciation for all kinds of music and while I still yearned for rock concert loud through my 30s, I also found myself listening at low levels a lot more and just enjoying the music. Now, my main system is void of any tone controls (other than the room) and I've been running much the same preamp and power amps for several years now. So, I've spent about three decades in all as a McIntosh owner (got my MX110/MC240 in 1989). In that time, I've just heard it all:

- Mc stuff was sold mainly to doctors and lawyers. . .
- Mc stuff is for folks who like form over substance . . .
- No serious audiophile owns Mc gear . . .

I've mostly just sat back and chuckled at such over the years. After all, perceived expertise is the norm vs the exception. I even had an member here PM me to tell me that my preamp was sub par because it had a lighted glass panel. A preamp he'd never heard, nor even understood its design. He was genuinely concerned for me that I may have been fooled into believing that this light organ which I thought to be a preamp wasn't the window into the artist's vision I had prior thought. He had that on good authority mind you. Thanks. I'll take it under advisement . . .

Well, buying this Krell has been illuminating. [Now keep in mind this amp was verified to meet published specs before I purchased it and was checked thorougly by a Krell specialist.] In the short time that I've been able to listen to it, I must say that I've been quite taken with it. Time to sell all my Mc gear and become a Krellie? Nope. In fact, I'm caught off guard a bit in finding that I believe my trusty MC2600s to be more neutral. The Krell is the first amp I've ever owned that I think has been voiced to sound a certain way. I've owned power amps from dozens of other manufacturers in my 3 decades of horsing around with the stuff and have had some real standouts - the Spectral DMA50 being the most remarkable of them.

Now, the next argument is - you need an X, Y, and Z to go with that Krell to unlock it's potential. Just you wait. I take very little stock in that line of thinking as the process is never complete. Just plug it and and go? **** no. What, are you a fool? In a former life, I taught system application and design to audio professionals. Really great components are designed in such a way that you can employ them for their intended purpose - without any parlor tricks and without having to have other boxes, doodads, or even the same brand of components up or downstream to unlock their potential. This is true of every McIntosh amplifier I've ever owned. I've run them with DJ mixers, other brands of preamps, and even piped sources directly into them. They just work.

Now the C200/KSA 300S may in fact be leaving something on the table as the bottom end seems fat to me in the 2nd octave and lean in the 1st as compared to the MC2600s. But, this wouldn't be because the C200 can't drive it. According to the published specifications, the C200 is capable of outputting 25 VRMS from its balanced outputs at 50 Ohms source output impedance. According to the KSA-300S manual, it requires only 2.5VRMS to drive it to maximum output (one tenth of what the C200 can deliver) and it has an input impedance of 47kOhms (typical for a SS design of this era). So, with a 50 Ohm output impedance, the C200 can drive only (94) 300S amps if we assume the golden 10:1 ratio of input Z to output Z.

At least I have proven one thing - I'm not a serious audiophile. But, I've been saying that for years.
 
markd51 said:
I have that 600 watts per channel, in fact just a small tad better, 674/676 watts 8 ohms per my factory spec sheet with the Amps, Bryston 7BSST2.

There's probably many weak-deficient, and problem areas in my system, but maybe perhaps the Brystons are the least of such.

Another $20K tossed in, yeah, that might oughta do it,..... somewhat.
Click to expand...
Bryston is on my radar sir. I'll own some, just you watch. I've admired them from afar for a very long time now.
 
damacman said:
I think all too often in this hobby, we get a bit caught up in the if I only had that XXX instead of the one I have syndrome. This is glorified by forums as this one and reviewers, who seem to have an endless stream of top-flight gear cycle through their living rooms. I wonder if any of those guys has actually been happy with their system for any length of time or if the idea of the next greatest thing may be nirvana precludes that.

I began my journey with big McIntosh power amps in about 1994 for one simple reason - my Carver **** couldn't play for hours on end during house parties. Enter the MC2200/MC2300 pair (active 2.1) that I migrated to. Problem solved. I went from folks leaving when the system shut off to folks having to be told to GTFO as the cops showed up. Ah, to be in my 20s again . . .

Along the way, I began to develop a real appreciation for all kinds of music and while I still yearned for rock concert loud through my 30s, I also found myself listening at low levels a lot more and just enjoying the music. Now, my main system is void of any tone controls (other than the room) and I've been running much the same preamp and power amps for several years now. So, I've spent about three decades in all as a McIntosh owner (got my MX110/MC240 in 1989). In that time, I've just heard it all:

- Mc stuff was sold mainly to doctors and lawyers. . .
- Mc stuff is for folks who like form over substance . . .
- No serious audiophile owns Mc gear . . .

I've mostly just sat back and chuckled at such over the years. After all, perceived expertise is the norm vs the exception. I even had an member here PM me to tell me that my preamp was sub par because it had a lighted glass panel. A preamp he'd never heard, nor even understood its design. He was genuinely concerned for me that I may have been fooled into believing that this light organ which I thought to be a preamp wasn't the window into the artist's vision I had prior thought. He had that on good authority mind you. Thanks. I'll take it under advisement . . .

Well, buying this Krell has been illuminating. [Now keep in mind this amp was verified to meet published specs before I purchased it and was checked thorougly by a Krell specialist.] In the short time that I've been able to listen to it, I must say that I've been quite taken with it. Time to sell all my Mc gear and become a Krellie? Nope. In fact, I'm caught off guard a bit in finding that I believe my trusty MC2600s to be more neutral. The Krell is the first amp I've ever owned that I think has been voiced to sound a certain way. I've owned power amps from dozens of other manufacturers in my 3 decades of horsing around with the stuff and have had some real standouts - the Spectral DMA50 being the most remarkable of them.

Now, the next argument is - you need an X, Y, and Z to go with that Krell to unlock it's potential. Just you wait. I take very little stock in that line of thinking as the process is never complete. Just plug it and and go? **** no. What, are you a fool? In a former life, I taught system application and design to audio professionals. Really great components are designed in such a way that you can employ them for their intended purpose - without any parlor tricks and without having to have other boxes, doodads, or even the same brand of components up or downstream to unlock their potential. This is true of every McIntosh amplifier I've ever owned. I've run them with DJ mixers, other brands of preamps, and even piped sources directly into them. They just work.

Now the C200/KSA 300S may in fact be leaving something on the table as the bottom end seems fat to me in the 2nd octave and lean in the 1st as compared to the MC2600s. But, this wouldn't be because the C200 can't drive it. According to the published specifications, the C200 is capable of outputting 25 VRMS from its balanced outputs at 50 Ohms source output impedance. According to the KSA-300S manual, it requires only 2.5VRMS to drive it to maximum output (one tenth of what the C200 can deliver) and it has an input impedance of 47kOhms (typical for a SS design of this era). So, with a 50 Ohm output impedance, the C200 can drive only (94) 300S amps if we assume the golden 10:1 ratio of input Z to output Z.

At least I have proven one thing - I'm not a serious audiophile. But, I've been saying that for years.
Click to expand...

I have encountered similar. It was just timing, and I had decided to bring my Tangent RS8s into my living-room, at the same time I gave my C26 preamp to Leestereo to do his magic. I used my restored C24 with the RS8s and my MC2205. It sounded good, but over time, I realized that I was not enjoying the RS8s. I had almost decided to sell them when I got my C26 back. That change was huge! All of the sudden, the RS8s were sounding gorgeous. I left them in place for another 3 weeks before I brought back my old(now my sons) Kef Concerto. I had never had such a drastic change smack me in the face like that before. It was quite an eye opener!
 
- Mc stuff was sold mainly to doctors and lawyers. . . <<<< well, the stuff ain't cheap, also being made here where manufacturing costs are higher probably contributes to that, but then again I am neither a doctor or lawyer.....
- Mc stuff is for folks who like form over substance . . . nah, I spent a lot of money trying not to spend a lot of money, if I would have just went to Mc right away, I would have been happier years ago without the equipment merrygo round...
- No serious audiophile owns Mc gear . . . this is the funniest one of all, what company STARTED high end and equipment manufactured to a higher standard, how many other companies that started with this mindset are GONE while this one survives? it's not the blue lights I can tell you that much. many hate those who are successful, it's also called envy. many high end companies wish they had the reputation and re sale value that Mc has.

Yes I know you were stating that all these things have been said to you, I have heard it also, just wanted to plug my answers in> I have had people think I just blindly bought the stuff and can't possibly enjoy the sound.....alot of other high end gear often sounds to me like it has an exaggerated Mid range. I haven;t heard Krell, so I can't make any comments on how it sounds but I can say this.....what I currently have leaves me feeling like I just don't need a krell, how ever owning what I have makes me want 1.2KWs...... (: oh well maybe someday, but then again....maybe I'll just keep what I have, it certainly doesn;t leave me unhappy, and that is the key.

Bein
 
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