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McIntosh MC-30 Capacitors Choice Please Help

marsfia

New Member
I have a pair of MC-30 in time-capsule condition which I previously intended to keep them all-original. Unfortunately one of them just has humming sound thru speaker, so it's time for them to go to Terry Dewick.

Could you guys please advise what cap (type/brand) should be used to replace the original ones? I prefer the **closest to its original look**, and **MC-30 original voicing**.

Mc lovers who has experience on MC-30 re-cap please kindly advise about capacitor choice...
1) For the big can on the chassis, should I use the one from CE brand, or AuthentiCap brand?
2) For small bumblebee caps in signal path, should I replace all of them at the same time, or do only bad ones?
Which brand should i go for? Any comment on those boutique brands: Audio Note, AuriCap, V-Cap, etc. on MC-30?
3) Would re-capped MC-30 decrease in value?

Your comments are valuable and are greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance. :)
 
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Well I just took 2 MC-30s completely apart and rebuild them on new chassis. For the can cap I used the CE 80x40x30x20.
Now I did a complete rebuild...every solder joint, resistor and cap was replaced. For the caps I used a mixture of Russian PIO caps and polypropylenes. Jim McShane made the suggestions. Well with one done, I can say it sounds fantastic. Can't compare to the original as both were dead when I got them.

As far as value I am not sure. But I would think that a properly restored unit is fine compared to an original one that has issues. John
 
My opinions:

- Condition vs value: Collectors will pay premium for unmolested but cosmetically perfect Mac tube amps and even more if all boxes, packing and accessories are available in the package. They will store them or display them only. Once they have failed, the premium falls away.

- To use them on a daily basis: Two main issues are...

- Safety: To be able to run the amps and have them remain reliable, they need to be rebuilt. You are no longer in Collector's territory so drop that as a consideration. Safe operation means that the components known to fail are replaced with new ones of the same or close values.

- Sonic presentation: Once it is safe to operate, then the interstage coupling caps, and other caps in the audio chain are replaced. Debates rage throughout the internet as to brand preferences. This is like discussing wine preferences so be prepared for as many opinions as there are posters in forums. Lastly, the amp's bias voltages are recalibrated to spec and the amp is tested to meet full operating specs.

- That "voicing" thing.......There are few of us here that were around when the MC-30s hit the streets. Without finding one in deep freeze somewhere, there's little chance anyone could even characterize its original 'voicing'. Since the original components are not made anymore much less with the exact same materials, there's no way, IMHO, that anyone can do a meaningful comparison to whatever you end up with on the MC-30s. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I was 3 when the first MC-30s hit the streets.

I think Sloober's approach isn't too bad by just "blueprinting" the whole amp and be done with it. I did this with a set of MC-30s some years ago and they ran all day with no problems and sounded great!

These are just my opinions, though.

Cheers,

David
 
I'll try to bite on this one, as I have walked the "what cap for a MC30" walk quite extensively.

First of all, I want to explain a basic tenet of this problem, which can be a bit hard to understand fully: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW EXACTLYWHAT AN ORIGINAL MC30 SOUNDED LIKE. Not EXACTLY.

The reason is that those original caps are 50 years old. You cannot get them brand new, and even if you could, it would be hard to guarantee that they were made EXACTLY the same way the old ones were. Even if you find them NOS, are they REALLY in the same operating state they were 50 years ago? Not likely. And having witnessed the cut open and measurement of some of these caps in MC30s, they are usually not in optimal condition after all these years. Some good working MC30 all original do exist, but those amps have either had very regular use, or extreme care in proper variac (wake-up) techniques after dormancy and stored in dry environments. That's a LOT of "requirements". Most MC30 aren't so lucky to have such well maintained lives. Even if so the caps occasionally fail - they're 50 years old.

So given that (and some opinions shared by my builder) it is my opinion that there is no way to really know exactly what an original MC30 sounded like when it came off the line. We cannot go back in time 50 years to listen to those 100% new off the line amps, and no one has the sonic memory to be able to tell you that they are the same as they were 50 years ago.

Having arrived at this understanding, I set about finding what cap would really be "best". And as I found out, that can be a very subjective thing.....but some generalities can be discussed.

Since the original caps are largely unavailable - and even if they were I wouldn't want to use them at 400+VDC - you must choose something else, that is if you want them to WORK. If one is a collector and wants his all original MC30s to set on a shelf, you can put originals in there. But NOT for actual USE. People with good, all original capped MC30s are RARE - those caps usually fail in time.

I asked this exact question re: caps several years ago, and (at least in public on forums) didn't get much specific info. I gather some of this was due to the subjectivity: If I recommend an ampful of Sonicap Platinums, and you buy them and install them, I might not want the $600 plus other parts and labor bill hanging over my proverbial head if you do not like them.

Also, there have been much more online experiences shared since then, and many cap brands and options have surfaced. When I was asking, "amplifier cap rolling" wasn't as much of an online sport, and generally speaking the online communities have tried and shared results which give us a better idea of some choices available now vs. say, five years ago.

I was fortunate to have a fellow forum member here extend a hand and offer to have me sample some builds. He sent me several examples of MC30 using different parts packages. We used Illinois Capacitor caps, Sonicap white, and Sonicap Platinums in that initial series, and it was enough to come to some basic understandings.

The general signature was basically the same: The full and rounded bass response, and the 6L6 midrange was intact with all of them. But the details are where the changes occur from cap to cap. As a Heritage Klipsch speaker owner, the amps do reveal subtle nuances and color differences from cap to cap, as well as from tube rolling.

The Illinois were sufficient for most builds, and a good build with them showed just how much was missing and different from my original builds. The congested throat and syrupy nature that became evident from the original builds was gone, and the bass response was MUCH better defined. OK, I now know I'm on the right track, and for most users would be very happy with it. But I'm anal and want the absolute perfect "finish" on my uber-revealing horns, and the Illinois did exhibit some edginess with my preferred tube combos - the extra details might even be a benefit on other speakers.

We tried a few more cap combos....then got sent a pair of 30's with two sets of different parts. One with Sonicap whites (standard good quality film and foil) and Platinums (a top-flight, uber revealing, audiophile cap that costs 600+ in parts per set of MC30 to do). Our thinking at that point was "OK, we know the benefits of a good base build - what if we go "better and best" on the caps and see what we end up with? When I got the amps from our builder, the deal was to see how long it would take to see which amp was which. It took 30 seconds. I listened for a whole day just to say I did it.

Then a second amp was built to match the Platinum version, and burnt in for over 500 hours (necessary for teflon formulated caps of any kind). Once at the 1000 hour point, a pair of amps revealed themselves to have all the general "body" of the MC30....but the details......WOWWWWWEEEE:yes: An almost SET like detail, a blackness of background that really set the build apart, and a bullet-like accuracy and speed in the microdetails. On premium recordings, it's OMIGODITSOUNDSSOGOOD, on some of the imperfect recordings, it's a bit too much detail. I considered it a great success, though, this amp pair being my "SET with testicles" in my stable of amplifiers. These caps just seem to get out of the way 100%, showing just how good that circuit and transformer can sound. But I do recognize that this is not what most picture an MC30 to sound like, at least with respect to those details.

That "platinum" build was so good in what it was good at that I dare not touch it. I acquired a second set of consecutively numbered 30's during that process, as during these trials I was becoming aware that I was such a fanboy of the amp that one build wasn't gonna be good enough. I thought the extreme openness of the platinums was a bit different than the "classic mental picture" enthusiasts have for an MC30. Just a bit TOO "audiophile". So we're looking toward the more traditional expectation of the MC30 - what recording engineer Steve Hoffman uses to bring those older recordings back to life.

My thinking had me leaning "PIO", at least in terms of a general sonic signature of a butter smooth kind of sound that give those older recordings a chance. Granted, I could use a more typical film and foil and get something "in the middle", and might well do that if I only had one set that would work well all around on my horns. I was recommended a particular cap for the purpose: the K40y-9 russian military capacitor (commonly available on that auction site). Given the reasonable cost, I figured I could afford to try them....it wasn't as if I spent $600 on the caps:D

Once run for 300 hours they settled into a nice, easy, warm sound without losing TOO much detail. Vs. a really "fast" cap, they aren't as detailed, but in the overall, they are reasonably well detailed. And for those older recordings that need a little help....really nice, lively, and smooth. When I go to my BEST recordings, I can tell the difference in the more settled down edge definitions, but that's not what I built them for. Yet I could play most recordings and have ya toe tapping and loving every minute of it with that classic Mac tube sound. The K40 is a REALLY safe "bet" in MC30s, and they aren't boutique priced.

This second pair became my "Steve Hoffman" purposed MC30s.

NOW, you can also play around a bit and get something "in the middle". For example, I could take the K40 set and roll an interstage cap to a film and foil, or I could take the Sonicap Platinum build and roll in a K40 or two. OR, I could maybe use an audiophile quality film and foil across the whole build, like an Auricap or Hovland or even a white Sonicap and get something "in the middle" of my two builds, If you are a do it yourselfer you can really have fun with this if you want to "get into caps".

There are a lot of caps in the audio path of an MC30, and they do impart some "signature", even though the general nature of the sound is similar. It's the details that count. If you have horns, or are otherwise similarly anal as I am about these things, you might care about the things I have typed here. Similar advice on the resistors: If you're anal, use carbon film or carbon comp resistors for replacements (and have your resistors checked). Carbon film are more stable, carbon comp are ideal sonically but can drift in value with age and humidity.

As for look: You aren't going to likely find NOS bumblebee caps that will work at those high voltages. If you plan to use them, there is no way around this: ANY OTHER cap change will deem them "unoriginal" no matter what they look like - and anyone who cares will know the difference in ANY other branded cap that's in there. The other "approach" - what I did - was for SOUND. And USE. A GOOD build will still hold good value. So, it's like a classic car: Do I take it out of any stage of 100% originality in order to make it driveable, if that's what I have to do to make it driveable? If you are at any stage out of originality now, your amp is NOT original, so you might as well get a good after-build with proper parts for the purpose and be done with it, that is if you want to USE them.
 
If the hum is the main problem, you could just do the filter can. Granted all the other stuff "should" be refreshed as well. The old caps and resistors are nowhere close to their original specs, so it is not what an MC-30 should sound like. In my opinion, I doubt they were voicing these things with as nearly as many choices in caps as we do today. They likely bought the black beauties by the ton and used them in everything. As long as you replace parts with the same values, that are fresh, you should do at least as good as the original. Sure there are all sorts of "flavors" of caps you can choose from. I listen to what others have had good luck with, and go from there.
Here is a shot of my completed MC-30 cap rebuild. Looks nothing like the original, but heck only I get to see the insides. Looks 1000% better than it did when I got it, and now it even works!
board2.jpg
 
Did you use a K40 for that first input cap, sloober (presumably just out of view on the left of photo)? Looks like nice work.....I saw your other thread as well and it's a job well worth doing:yes: MC30s deserve it:thmbsp:
 
I have a pair of MC-30 in time-capsule condition which I previously intended to keep them all-original. Unfortunately one of them just has humming sound thru speaker, so it's time for them to go to Terry Dewick.

Could you guys please advise what cap (type/brand) should be used to replace the original ones? I prefer the **closest to its original look**, and **MC-30 original voicing**.

Mc lovers who has experience on MC-30 re-cap please kindly advise about capacitor choice...
1) For the big can on the chassis, should I use the one from CE brand, or AuthentiCap brand?
2) For small bumblebee caps in signal path, should I replace all of them at the same time, or do only bad ones?
Which brand should i go for? Any comment on those boutique brands: Audio Note, AuriCap, V-Cap, etc. on MC-30?
3) Would re-capped MC-30 decrease in value?

Your comments are valuable and are greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance. :)

If you are going to send them to a professional restorer like Terry Dewick, wouldn't it be better to express your desires and concerns to him and then let him make the call on what parts to use? Otherwise you might be painting him into a corner by specifying what parts he is to use. I believe I'd trust his judgement! That's why you are hiring him! :yes:
 
Did you use a K40 for that first input cap, sloober (presumably just out of view on the left of photo)? Looks like nice work.....I saw your other thread as well and it's a job well worth doing:yes: MC30s deserve it:thmbsp:

The first input cap (C1) is an orange drop. I was told this is to filter DC from the input, so I didn't go for anything special. I used the k40y caps to replace the .22uF caps. You can see them in the photos, the silver ones with clear shrink. The smaller vertical ones are 400v and the huge horizontal ones are 1000v. These were on recommendation from McShane. I plan to bring the first amp in to work and have it tested for output and distortion. Tell you one thing, this amp is dead silent!
 
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Sorry for late reply, just got back, didn't bring laptop with me during the trip.
:thmbsp: David, John, Audio Nectar, Thunderroad... BIG THANKS to you guys for very useful information! I truly appreciate all advise and comments from you guys :thmbsp:

I have 2 pairs of MC-30. One pair is for regular use, another pair which just got problem is the collected one, with boxes, papers. They have been keeping in controlled climate, and babying for decades. Even I brought them up slowly with variac, one of them is not lucky enough to survive. Here comes the hum sound.... That's so sad. :tears:

I'm now suspect the hum may caused by bad filter can as John said. However, I have no way (and don't know how) to check it by myself since I totally have no idea how to fix or check it. I'm very poor at electronic stuffs. :sigh:

You guys are true, no one know what the original MC-30 really sound like, since it was 50 years ago when brand new. I'm now very hesitate to just fix the hum problem by replacing just the filter can and see whether the hum sound does go away or not, or do restoration the whole things including replacing all caps in signal path on them.

In term of functionality, what does each cap (C1, C2, C4, C5, C6, C8, C9, C10, C11?) in each position do? Which one/position need to be very careful in selecting the cap choice? Is there any of them can be replaced with only standard cap and will not effect the sound? What is the size (uf?, v?) need to be used in place?

John, and Audible Nectar:
I'm interested in the Russian cap in terms of value, and it's sound. I searched on that auction site, and found some in silver PIO, some are green PETP??? What are the difference between them? Are they the same type as those platinum Sonicap you mention, or Audio Note, AuriCap?

I also checked the price of AuriCap, they are not too pricy should be around $200+- for a pair MC-30. I found some reviews on AuriCap said they are very neutral and fast. If i use all AuriCaps, will they make my MC-30 sounds dry, or loss in its nice warm enjoyable sounding?

Sorry for so many question. I'm newbie. This is my first time to deal with problem in MC-30. :worried:

Thanks again
 
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We were all newbies. Heck I have had my MC-30s for only a couple months and these are my first Macs. But I have done lots of other amps. Although I did rebuild #1 successfully, I am by no stretch an expert. I can't tell you what every cap does, but I will pass on what I do know. C2 is wired to the input socket so mine will never be used. The 2 silver ones on my photo above, are the Russian caps. They are between the 12BH7 and outputs, and between the first 12AX7 and the 12AU7. I think these are critical locations and as such I am using the PIO caps. I ordered them from Jim McShane, who is often on AK, and he suggested what caps I should use where.
If you are sending these to Terry, just ask his opinion and tell him what you have heard good about. It will be up to him, if he is doing the work. If you are going to do it yourself, then the sky is the limit. But you will hear all sorts of stuff from all sorts of people. You will have to sort it all out and decide which path to take. I have been told by more than one person to not use all the same type of cap. So using all Auricaps would likely be a bad idea.
Overall, the way I look at it, just about any amp that is 50 years old will sound much better with fresh components. After that I just sit and listen, and enjoy. John
 
John,

I've talked to Terry days ago. He is very nice and kind. He told me now he is using Nichicon QX Series (if i'm not wring) to replace those bumblebee. He said it will not be much different from those boutique brand. However, he told me I can choose whatever I want to be in the amps. The problem is I totally have no idea on them. :no: Just want to give something best i can afford to my beloved amps. Have you ever tried the Nichicon, or have any idea?

Tee
 
I've used Illinois Caps in my Citation II and the MC-75s that Analog Addict now has. I have 2 MC-225s with Auricaps and they're quite nice. I also used Solens in places where I could not get the proper values with Auricaps.

These amps have been reliable and sound great. By that, I mean, the soundstage is solid, stable and wide. Bass authority and air around the instruments is quite clear with the proper speakers. Dunno what kind of 'voicing' that is but its great.

Go with Terry's recommendations......

Cheers,

David
 
Those are good solid caps, but far from what some would call "boutique". I used a few in my MC-30. If you look at them in the picture in the link below, you will see they are not anything like the originals, and not round like a tootsie roll, but flatish. So I would throw looks right out the window, I did. Just get what you think will sound good. There is a lot of stuff to read about all the different types out there. John
http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nic...GAEpiMZZMukHu%2bjC5l7YaOG9BFLf4IrMWVq6a7Huc8=
 
OH !!!
Finally I saw what the QX looks like. :sigh: I would probably call Terry to discuss again.

Apart from original bumblebee, I love Audio Note copper the best for its look. Once I checked the price $800 for caps alone, I backed off and have to think about it again and again. The russian PIO in yours look nice, and as you and Audible Nectar said the sound is lush and nice, that should worth a try. Are they available in all sizes uF, VDC?

About the filter can, Terry recommend me to use CE 100x100 at 500v. Do you know the height? Is it exactly 4-inches? I can't find the dimension online.
Do you have any experience about filter can from CE, and AuthentiCap (Germany)? Some said the AuthentiCap is far better than CE brand. :screwy:
 
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By the way, John, what is your preference speakers for MC-30? I use my MC-30 with Chartwell 3/5a, and love the sound.
 
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Not too sure of the filter can. I used a 80x40x30x20 @525v as it met the stock requirements. It is 3.5 high, so slightly smaller than the originals. Not sure where a 100uf x100uf would be used. Authenticaps look good, but I have not used them. The CE ones are back ordered so this may be a good way to go.
As for speakers I am only testing now. Should have MC-30 #2 done in a couple weeks. Waiting on parts and some paint to dry. Then I will listen with some Klipsch KG1 or MB Quarts I have. Nothing very fancy. John
 
Don't forget these are audio amplifiers. What the parts look like, esp the ones you won't see, have little effect on the sound. Just use quality stuff and enjoy. John
 
Illinois caps do fine in MC 30 amps and keep the original sonics. Just let Terry do it with the caps he prefers to use in it. Works well for us.
 
When I rebuilt mine I used Illinois and AuriCaps. Replaced all the out of spec resistors with carbon. They are in use every day and sound great. I could care less about resale. I just enjoy!
Dan
 
I'm also one who does not care that much about resale, particularly to an "all original collector". IME, a well rebuilt pair of MC30 will hold good value to people who want to use them.

I also think it worthy of repeating that pretty much ALL of the caps mentioned in this thread are OK for the purpose. They will all get you "pretty close" to each other, and will reveal only slight differences in "finish". Having those very revealing horns and an ear which appreciates the varying "hues" of the best vintage tubes was cause for me to take the investigation as far as I could go Re: caps.

I've also read good things about the Authenticap cans, but as it was at least double the cost of the CE and available through import only (I knew of no domestic dealers at the time of my builds) I just stayed with the CE. I must say that the Authenticap IS a curiosity, but never had a need to take the $150+ per pair plunge to see if they have any additional sonic merit. If any CE cans fail here (and I have had one do so already), this is where I'm going.

Oh, and for the record, the russian PIO type is the K40y-9 when doing those searches. The green one is a K42 I believe....but there are two kinds of the green russian caps, one is a good audio coupling cap, the other not so much, and I'm not sure which is which.

I'm also not much for what the internal cap colors look like....I think a good looking, well arranged layout/install on the rebuild is sufficient. SOME of these audio boutique caps can be hard to lay out on an MC30 board, as many of those caps are quite large.
 
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