jayvis
Addicted Member
We're all part of the national economy whether we contribute to it or not.
McIntosh MC275 MK VI Clone
- Thread starter CohibaJoe
- Start date
I can honestly say from personal experience this is utterly not true.
Are you trying to make something up about McIntosh, to make to yourself feel better because you're personally buying and endorsing an absolutely, blatantly stolen design & pirated knock off?
McIntosh has been excellent to me over many years, owning many components from them, and they are solid people working hard, trying to survive, the've sold me parts for my old tube amps (yes, parts can be expensive), They've shared schematics and provided my local service tech with valuable information to get them singing again and back to orig specification. Unlike some companies like Krell, Mark Levison, and Audible Illusions that wont help your local tech, attempting to fix one of their legacy products.
McIntosh as a USA company is still alive, hard working people. Yes; its true, not everything is still available parts wise from 60 years ago and they can't support you for everything due to the age of their earlier models, and demising parts, but they will help you as best as possible, and they do try to offer the specs to help you find replacements parts, they go beyond most companies in this way. But here you are pirating them and bad mouthing them at the same time.
I dont think you realize how expensive it is to house and store all those old parts for all those legacy products for many many decades? For the just in case someone calls up and asks/needs one of them, they literally need to buy a whole warehouse building to store them, and hire people on salary for years and years so they can offer you that part; for that service & support help, it does not come cheap and your not respecting it. But I grant you, it can be very expensive. But also, that part you buy from McIntosh, also helps you retain its high value unlike that cheap knock off.
It makes me sad reading your attempts to bad mouth them, McIntosh is one the few legacy companies that is trying to do the right thing for its customers and employees; unlike many large audio companies bing overseas. It's awesome they're still around and offering made in USA audio components. They're sadly expensive because of the sheer overhead costs of manufacturing here in USA.
I love the idea of resurrecting old amps, audio components and old designs that are long gone and bring them back alive; it' awesome but doing it this way is really bad, your consciously supporting straight out stolen identity; it's a pirated knock off and is virtually a fake counterfeit item pretending to be an orig. McIntosh amp, when they're simply not. You're virtually stealing and profiting from an active USA company that created that amp that is still a current model; that's is a pretty low blow and morally bad for the ones buying it and chatting it up on this audiophile site.
I too am guilty of buying made in China audio gear and no name clones, but this amp in the pic below is straight out piracy and as fake as a chinese made Ferrari and your hurting an active USA audio company, and most likely some McIntosh employees are AK members too.
If someone is going to benefit from copying the design and schematic that is not there's, at least use a different look and different chassis; and certainly call it something else. I'm actually very surprised AK moderators have been finding this thread of a pirated audio product being promoted and endorsed here on AK by letting this continue.
Pic of a stolen copyrighted, pirated MC275 amp, posted earlier in this thread.
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trainbuffton
Active Member
Its my understanding that they dont stock any of the parts for say an MC 30 that arent off the shelf commodity parts.I can honestly say from personal experience this is utterly not true.
Are you trying to make something up to make yourself feel better because you're personally buying and endorsing an absolutely pirated knock off?
McIntosh has been excellent to me over many years, owning many components from them, and they are solid people working hard, trying to survive, the've sold me parts for my old tube amps (yes, parts can be expensive), They've shared schematics and provided my local service tech with valuable information to get them singing again and back to orig specification. Unlike some companies like Krell, Mark Levison, and Audible Illusions that wont help your local tech, attempting to fix one of their legacy products.
McIntosh as a USA company is alive, on top of that, they're very nice, hard working people. Yes; its true, not everything is still available parts wise from 60 years ago and they can't support you for everything due to the age, but they will help you as best as possible, and they do try to offer the specs info to help you find replacements parts, they go beyond most companies in this way. But here you are pirating them
I dont think you realize how expensive it is to house and store all those old parts for all those legacy products, for the just in case someone calls up and asks/needs one, They literally need to buy a whole warehouse to store them, and hire people for years and years so they can offer you that part; for that service & support help does not come cheap and your not respecting it. But I grant you, it can be very expensive. But also, that part you buy from McIntosh, also helps you retain its high value unlike that cheap knock off.
It makes me sad reading your attempts to bad mouth them, McIntosh is one the few legacy companies that is trying to do the right thing for its customers and employees; unlike many large audio companies. It's awesome they're still around and offering made in USA audio components. They're sadly expensive because of the sheer overhead costs of manufacturing here in USA.
I love they idea of resurrecting old amps, audio components and old designs that are long gone and bring them back alive; but doing it in this way is really bad, your consciously supporting straight out stolen identity it's a pirated knock off and is virtually a fake pretending to be McIntosh when they are simply are not, and virtually stealing and profiting from an active USA company that created that amp; that's is a pretty low blow and morally bad for the ones buying it.
I'm too guilty of buying Made in China audio gear and no name clones, but this amp below is straight out piracy and as fake as a chinese made Ferrari. If someone is going to benefit from copying the design and schematic, at least use a different look and chassis; and certainly call it something else. I'm actually very surprised AK moderators have been finding this thread of a pirated audio product being promoted and endorsed here on AK by letting this continue.
Boards, new chassis; emblems, transformers, you're on your own...
The rest of it can be had at mouser.
When i called and asked they said they could dig up a schematic but that they did not stock any of the parts to their first generation tube equipment... They may have pointed me to Audio Classics.
So i actually got it straight from the horses mouth...
Im not bad mouthing McIntosh.
They do great work but they cant possibly offer full parts catalog level support for their gear like they once did. At one point they would replace your tubes for free!
Tune up your amplifier and test it to make sure it meets spec.
That all can still be done but McIntosh corporate isn't going to do it.
They dont offer support for a 70 year old product, big surprise...
Perhaps if they did, i would not be able to acquire 2 broken, neglected mc30s and build them into a perfect working pair again because they would never fall that far into disrepair and the entry price would be unbearable for me...
Doctorhugo
Los Angeles CA
In many areas of consumer manufacture we're seeing a profusion of copied/cloned designs. Thus was it ever so. However the argument could be made that there's a lot of distance separating a replica and a fake. This is a contentious topic in musical instruments; there are many copies of Gibson designs, but the fakes - which deliberately purport to be the products of a company other than the real manufacturer - are of another order. However one may feel about the cloning of designs, counterfeit goods are simply illegal.
There are a few countries in the world who persistently flout trade regulations by producing and exporting counterfeit goods on a significant scale. Only one is in the top five world economies at this time. However we feel about the policies of a particular company - in this case McIntosh - I hope we'd all agree that as a law-abiding member of the business community, they're entitled to the basic protection of their copyrights and patents under law.
There are a few countries in the world who persistently flout trade regulations by producing and exporting counterfeit goods on a significant scale. Only one is in the top five world economies at this time. However we feel about the policies of a particular company - in this case McIntosh - I hope we'd all agree that as a law-abiding member of the business community, they're entitled to the basic protection of their copyrights and patents under law.
"In addition, every one they sell comes at the expense of a real one being sold."
^^^ I do not believe that is quite true. Buyers of this amp are not purchasing in the same price category. It's like saying every purchaser of a Fender Strat or Tele low cost lookalike (and there are plenty to choose from out there) is taking a sale from a Fender American-made guitar.
I knew a guy who worked at Fender for many years who said he believed Fender's #1 competitor was all the second hand Fender instruments out there for sale, not the lookalikes.
Lavane
Lunatic Member
I agree. If you want a real Fender, your going to save up and buy it.
Same goes for anything really.
A couple years ago I bought a clone of the Technics SL-1200 turntable.
If I really wanted the Technics, I would have saved up more money and bought one. The clone is good enough for the amount of records I own and play anyway. Even if there were no clones of this turntable, I wouldn't have bought the real deal. I bought a decent cartridge for it and called it good. It's quiet, and works just fine. It may not last as long as the real SL-1200 if I were to use it a lot compared to a Technics, but the amount of times I actually use it it should last me a good long time.
Same goes for the amp this thread is all about. I don't think it really takes very many sales if any away from McIntosh. The used amp market will take more sales away from this amp than the cheaper clones ever will.
yeah, thats absurd. no ones buying this because they have the money for a mc intosh but the would rather have the knockoff.
I enjoy a good 'legal' vs. 'moral' topic!
The patents are long expired, so I can see people undertaking 'free use.' So far, fine by me.
Looking at the important parts, McIntosh builds their own transformers from 'proprietary materials." Their Unity Coupled Circuit output transformer - easily copied, or not? So, we are talking some uncertainty for the long haul. I don't know what tubes the clones use, either. Lots of unknowables, for me. I assign value to buying a known commodity from a known producer.
Circuit board layouts are copyrightable, so should we assume the clones drew and printed their own copies? How good are they?
For me, too much of the unknown, including warranty or repair service. No record of performance or time/longevity. Who supports the clones in America?
Next up, for me: 'value.' How is the resale value on the clones? McIntosh has a pretty good record on that front, so I'd assign value to that, as well. With McIntosh, I used to know who I was fiscally investing in or supporting (now that it's Bose, that feeling is over.) With clones, who knows.
For the price of a clone, I just don't feel like I'd be getting enough from it to stay content about it all.
On the ethics front: stealing the 'dress' or look/feel of the original is the wrong part, to me. That really is taking advantage of our collective 'good will' regarding the product that we have seen in our lives for 60+ years. Thumbs down on that: use the circuits, etc, make new parts, I don't care, but don't steal the look....it ain't yours.
Plus, would I feel great about being asked about my new MC275 and saying, "Yeah, that, it's an "Orsefon."
Over-all, not for me but I wouldn't do anything about it, either. I enjoy reading the adventures of people who get these, what they hear, and how they tweak them...so that's a net positive, for me.
The patents are long expired, so I can see people undertaking 'free use.' So far, fine by me.
Looking at the important parts, McIntosh builds their own transformers from 'proprietary materials." Their Unity Coupled Circuit output transformer - easily copied, or not? So, we are talking some uncertainty for the long haul. I don't know what tubes the clones use, either. Lots of unknowables, for me. I assign value to buying a known commodity from a known producer.
Circuit board layouts are copyrightable, so should we assume the clones drew and printed their own copies? How good are they?
For me, too much of the unknown, including warranty or repair service. No record of performance or time/longevity. Who supports the clones in America?
Next up, for me: 'value.' How is the resale value on the clones? McIntosh has a pretty good record on that front, so I'd assign value to that, as well. With McIntosh, I used to know who I was fiscally investing in or supporting (now that it's Bose, that feeling is over.) With clones, who knows.
For the price of a clone, I just don't feel like I'd be getting enough from it to stay content about it all.
On the ethics front: stealing the 'dress' or look/feel of the original is the wrong part, to me. That really is taking advantage of our collective 'good will' regarding the product that we have seen in our lives for 60+ years. Thumbs down on that: use the circuits, etc, make new parts, I don't care, but don't steal the look....it ain't yours.
Plus, would I feel great about being asked about my new MC275 and saying, "Yeah, that, it's an "Orsefon."
Over-all, not for me but I wouldn't do anything about it, either. I enjoy reading the adventures of people who get these, what they hear, and how they tweak them...so that's a net positive, for me.
Lavane
Lunatic Member
The support would be a biggie for me. With these clones your talking about them being built in another country. Shipping alone for warrenty work or later repairs if needed would probably stop me from wanting one of these McIntosh clone amps. Plus how long will the company that makes them be around?
So you really have to weigh the pros and cons here, and whether it's worth it to you. Some can do there own repairs if needed down the line, and that's fine as long as it's not any off the spendy bits like transformers that may not be available in just a few years. If they had a service department in the same country you live in that would be a big plus though.
MissionX
Keep it Silky
Well....I'll take some measurements within my ability if my unit actually arrives. It was ultracheap on ebay. Waiting to find a mate to my MC40 in the meantime.....
I know this is a very old topic and I'm coming to the party late .. but for me, this is more than a patents issue. The amp is a visual clone of the McIntosh design of the MC275, a design that has been used by McIntosh for over 50 (75?) years with only a few changes. Seems to me that taking the design of the amp is theft of McIntosh's trade dress. These guys could use the circuits in their clone amp but put it in a different shell. But they chose to trade on McIntosh's brand identity and reputation. As presented, it looks like an MC275 and could easily be confused for one. You do not have to fool an expert, only an average consumer for there to be confusion. And if they are using the identical visual appearance, and packing in an inferior product, that could be further damaging to McIntosh.
I hope u get your amp. I saw that BIN at a low price. Similar amps with sellers of 0 fdbk and similar weird usernames have not delivered. I saved the sales and eventually the negative feedbacks piled up. I quit looking at it at -2. As far as I could tell from the feedbacks the buyers did get their $ back.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
MissionX
Keep it Silky
Yea, I doubt if I get it. I contacted ebay and he said I have 30 days to file a claim after the projected delivery date if it is not received.
Bingo!
I have said this many times, its the transformers. I am a fan of McIntosh, I have tried to explain this to a few folks over the years that the caps and resistors that McIntosh used were the same as any of the large Japan brands, its the Transformers that make them stand out. They were the 1st ones to patten sealed transformers as well I think. Pretty cool stuff!!!
The MC275 transformers of all the genuine reissues by McIntosh are quite different than the originals from the 1960s. They are wound on a different type of core geometry and the new ones are missing the so-called tertiary windings the originals had for the driver tubes. The newer amps are fully balanced and have balanced feedback windings with a different circuit and different parts values than the originals.
There have been a few third party re-winders of McIntosh transformers that were successful.
In my opinion if you are able to take a transformer apart to examine it and rewind it you are probably capable of taking it apart and copying it. My opinion -- respectfully I know yours is probably different.
We have had these clones available now for years. Yet they still exist on a USA public selling site. Either McIntosh doesn't care enough to go after these "copies", or they determined "it wasn't worth it" or fighting it "is not in their best interest" or they "lack jurisdiction" or ??...
In my opinion they have had more than enough time to stop these from being marketed and the fact they are still out there has set a precedence in my mind that is it now the status quo. My opinion -- respectfully I know yours is almost certainly different. We can agree to disagree.
There have been a few third party re-winders of McIntosh transformers that were successful.
In my opinion if you are able to take a transformer apart to examine it and rewind it you are probably capable of taking it apart and copying it. My opinion -- respectfully I know yours is probably different.
We have had these clones available now for years. Yet they still exist on a USA public selling site. Either McIntosh doesn't care enough to go after these "copies", or they determined "it wasn't worth it" or fighting it "is not in their best interest" or they "lack jurisdiction" or ??...
In my opinion they have had more than enough time to stop these from being marketed and the fact they are still out there has set a precedence in my mind that is it now the status quo. My opinion -- respectfully I know yours is almost certainly different. We can agree to disagree.
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But the new MC275 transformers are not the same as the 1st generation C core trifilar types. Somehow even with the simpler EI cores in the new MC275 the amp is still good.