MicroLine Or Shibata Which Is ‘Better’?
- Thread starter Jim Creek
- Start date
lini
just me...
Are you sure about that, Don? I'm only aware of 6 / 80 µm for the SuperFineLine of the MC30Supreme. But the SuperFineLine doesn't seem all too well-defined, anyway, 'cause according to the spec sheet for the MC15Super MkII, that also sported a SuperFineLine, but specified with 5 / 40 µm instead.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
ETI_5000
Super Member
I'm not.
That's mainly because it came off their website https://www.ortofon.com/mc-supreme-series-p-635 . I have discovered errors there before. However, I did a search, and discovered the same stylus details listed by someone who'd been selling one new on Ebay some time ago, and stating that it had an 8 x 60µm Super Nude Fine Line stylus.
ETI_5000
Super Member
The Vivid Line has the same dimensions as the Shibata 1 (6 x 70µm), according to LP gear, but that doesn't mean it's the same stylus - chances are that there are differences in the way it's cut. It's just that I've listed all tips which have similar small radius (thickness) in the same line. The only ones which are the same shapes that I know of are the Micro-Ridge, Micro-Line and SAS, which are based on Namiki's ridge-type styli, although they have come in several different dimensions.
Why LP Gear are able to sell Vivid Lines so cheaply I don't know, but part of it may be that it doesn't have the name which the Shibata has, although mainly that's because it was the first line contact ever released, and plenty of customers don't know how the others vary from it, or if they're as good or better, as some are. It helps to have been around for 45 years!
The Shibata 1 (that's the Namiki/JVC original, and still the best Shibata) is still made by Namiki and used by many companies, including Audio-Technica. Ortofon uses the Shibata II on some models, but of course, they also have the much superior Fritz Gyger and Replicant tips to use on their best cartridges. The Shibata III is an entry-level model that Namiki have introduced, similar to AT's Line Contact or Ortofon's Fine Line in contact patch length (r=40µm), so it should be cheaper than the other two. Similar to the van den Hul II stylus, the Shibata II was probably introduced as a cheaper version which didn't need such accurate aligning, and JVC certainly used it on some cheaper cartridge models.
Whether or not the patent still applies to the Shibata, or ran out after 40 years, I don't know, but that was held by JVC, who no longer make cartridges, so whether they still receive money for use of the Shibata, is also unknown. But there are many better tips available today, including van den Hul, Fritz Gyger, Replicant and ML/MR/SAS. According to AJ van den Hul, the main problem is the varying width of the Shibata up its side, which causes distortion and sound to vary significantly during play, whereas his tips, and the others I mentioned, are quite even in dimensions up their sides.
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lini
just me...
Don: From the German distributor: https://www.ortofon-elite.de/main.php?prod=mc30supreme&cat=classic&lang=de
From a french forum: https://www.audiovintage.fr/leforum/download/file.php?id=72489&sid=18b0aa26088e3d3820b9acabde5ae5b0
German hifi wiki page: https://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Ortofon_MC_30_Supreme
8 µm minor radius would simply appear too fat for me to justify the Super prefix...
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
P.S.: And yup, it seems a bit unfortunate, that one can never be quite sure, whether the published data on the Ortofon web site are correct.
From a french forum: https://www.audiovintage.fr/leforum/download/file.php?id=72489&sid=18b0aa26088e3d3820b9acabde5ae5b0
German hifi wiki page: https://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Ortofon_MC_30_Supreme
8 µm minor radius would simply appear too fat for me to justify the Super prefix...
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
P.S.: And yup, it seems a bit unfortunate, that one can never be quite sure, whether the published data on the Ortofon web site are correct.
johnjhazel
PhxJohn
VividLines are HE/Line Contact not Shibata. Shibata's are labeled Shibata. For the same stylus, LPTunes calls them hyperelliptical and LPGear calls them line contact(VividLine).
Today is the first time that I have read or heard that VividLines are Shibata. And that was in this thread. VividLines can be called LineContact or Hyperelliptical.
Price difference:
Shibata: https://lptunes.com/products/stylus-for-stanton-881-mkii-s-cartridge
VividLine: https://lptunes.com/products/stylus-for-stanton-881s-cartridge
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
I think it is the name, I know the ml is the better stylus as like many here I am a vinyl nutter, with around 50 carts, so I should know. Most people though look at a line up and Shibata is expensive and sounds cool ml is cheaper so Shibata must be the ultimate. You see it time and time again on forums where people discuss Shibata as if it is the be all and end all of stylus cuts which it is not even close to be. I blame the cool name for the confusion and it being around for such a long time.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Many cuts are more similar than you think. The Stereohedron for example was Stantons attempt to do something similar to a Shibata and not pay to use it ie make it different enough which they did. Regarding being able to hear different couts IMO you can at least between an elliptical and an ML for example quite easily, not so sure about a Stereohedron and sat a Shibata, all else equal I doubt anyone could hear a difference blind.
Chris
johnjhazel
PhxJohn
I know of one guy on LencoHeaven.who dismisses the Shibata. It has something to do with the cut. I will try to find a post with his reasoning.
I found it. It is a post between myself and a very knowledgeable guy on LencoHeaven.net. It makes sense to me. I hesitate to spend money on an 'exotic' tip until the jury comes in with a decision: Microline, MicroRidge, SAS, Shibata, HE/Line Contact. I would imagine that the HE/Line Contact, and Shibata are in one class, and the MicroLine, MicroRidge(is it the same as MicroLine ?) and SAS(is the it same as a MicroRidge ?) are in another class. In the meantime, I like the once popular 0.2 x 0.7. I like the added detail that it provides over the ubiquitous 0.3 x 0.7 mil.
Here is the post about the Shibata:
'I remember that you mentioned the curved contact line. Can you hear it and describe what it sounds like ? Distorted ? Soft ? I think until the patent expired, Ortofon and other companies were paying royalties. The replicant looks like a more complex cut or lasering than the Shibata. Wasn't the Shibata the first or one of the first needles for Quad ?
Yes, you are correct - Shibata invented the tip specifically for CD-4 (discrete). However, there had been earlier attempts to make line contact styli. It was a simple solution that achieved the required goals of the time, but it has since been significantly surpassed with newer (more complex) designs which also have a longer service life with a more consistent performance.
The Replicant is almost certainly made by Fritz Gyger (who also made the VdH tip originally if they don't still do) as it is substantially similar to the FG70/80 etc. It is indeed a much more complex design - does it therefore not strike you as "inconsistent" (or rather curious) that the Shibata tipped models (Black) are significantly more expensive than the Replicant sporting models (Bronze)? Pure marketing. It has nothing to do with the tip complexity clearly!
Incidentally, Ortofon don't "make" the styli - they buy in pre-tipped cantilevers which they buy off their supplier. They align them and attach them to the motor assembly. Any licensing is factored into the price - usually the manufacturer (eg Namiki, Ogura, FG) IS the design/patent holder so they just charge what they want for it.
The degree to which you hear the effect of the curving line is dependent on the quality/accuracy of the cut and the accuracy of the tip alignment (in particular azimuth).
At best, you have a slight variation to the effective contact position up the groove wall. Given that the cutter has a straight edge, a curving surface is not going to scan the modulation as accurately as a straight line. If you have an azimuth error then when you add in zenith error, you have a varying effective rake angle on each wall which is not ideal. Secondly, the 6um scanning radius is not sufficient on the inner grooves for full bandwidth and also insufficient for high modulation amplitudes (of HF signals). You need to be down to around 2 to 3um to trace high velocity/short wavelengths which basically rules out all but the Microline and VdH Type IS.
When comparing the Microline to the Shibata, the Shibata has a darker/sweeter sound than the ML which can come across as "cool" in balance mainly because you still have scanning loss especially on the inner grooves with the Shibata where the ML is essentially flat in response. The ML is more accurate in reproduction with unsurpassed life and bandwidth.
I believe the main reason for the revival in the Shibata in audiophile models is because at the high-end, voicing seems to be more important than accuracy (to some people).
I guess the ML can come across as "cold and hard", but just like facts, that's how I prefer my sound - technically correct and unfettered.'
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johnjhazel
PhxJohn
I think that is a hyperelliptical (line contact) as opposed to a Shibata.
I have a shibata on a cartridge I bought recently that I am LOVING, in part because of its tone. @johnjhazel notes in a previous post that preferences for shibata can come down to "voicing seems to be more important than accuracy (to some people)", and I must be one of those people. The cartridges I've had that use a different advanced cut (AT440mlb and mla) both sounded edgy and shrill to me such that I traded them away in favor of plain-jane ellipticals. For me in my system the tone and lack of shrill highs are most important. I certainly get why the other cuts are considered better or more advanced.
Hell, I love a good conical. There is something about the voicing/tone that I crave in my cartridges. My current shibata tip is goldilocks for me.
Hell, I love a good conical. There is something about the voicing/tone that I crave in my cartridges. My current shibata tip is goldilocks for me.
Jim Creek
Jazz, Wine, Electronics
Are you sure? Because this is what is in the list that member ETI-5000 presented earlier in this thread:
- 0.24 x 3 mil / 6 x 75 μm – Shibata 1 (Namiki/JVC design, manufactured by Namiki, and named after JVC engineer Norio Shibata), Vivid Line (LPGear)
- Hyperelliptical = (0.2 x 1.5 mils). Vivid Line = (0.2 x 3 mils)
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johnjhazel
PhxJohn
I am going by what the retailer indicates that it is.
johnjhazel
PhxJohn
In the post with the quotes, I was the one asking the question. You make some valid points. I prefer a warm sounding system over a bright one. I don't want any thing to be missing either. I like conicals too. I have one 0.5 mil and a bunch of 0.7 mils. The 0.5 differs from the 0.7 in the same way that the 0.2 x 0.7 differs from the 0.3 x 0.7. The most 'exotic' tip that I have on hand right now is a 0.2 x 0.7. My favorite so far. I will have to look at the chart that a member posted in this thread again.
patient_ot
Super Member
Vivid Line is just a marketing term. Sometimes what LPG calls VL is simply a fine elliptical. There isn't consistency with the way they use that term. The Shibatas that LPG sells on aftermarket styli for old carts are bonded, not nude diamonds. They also lack the tie wire where the OEM would've included it.
ML is simply AT's marketing name for the Namiki Microridge. The MR has the thinnest side radius of any stylus on the market. Don't confuse a generic "line contact" shape with ML/MR. They are nothing alike.
If you look at the patent documents for these stylus shapes you'll see that the ML/MR is a far more advanced cut than the Shibata. The Shibata was one of the earliest advanced shapes. Same deal with the FG-S.
AFAIK there have not been any new stylus shapes patented since the late 80s. Lots of marketing lingo though, which may confuse some people.
ML is simply AT's marketing name for the Namiki Microridge. The MR has the thinnest side radius of any stylus on the market. Don't confuse a generic "line contact" shape with ML/MR. They are nothing alike.
If you look at the patent documents for these stylus shapes you'll see that the ML/MR is a far more advanced cut than the Shibata. The Shibata was one of the earliest advanced shapes. Same deal with the FG-S.
AFAIK there have not been any new stylus shapes patented since the late 80s. Lots of marketing lingo though, which may confuse some people.
illini
The Past is Alive
As others have stated, the Microline (Micro-Linear) profile is superior based on the published specifications; according to the at440mla manual, the Microline cartridge delivers “PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL TO THE CUTTER HEAD” performance.
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/327164d3d67e3e65/at440mla_manual.pdf
Personal preference aside the Audio-Technica Microline replicates the master disc more accurately than all other cartridges.
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/327164d3d67e3e65/at440mla_manual.pdf
Personal preference aside the Audio-Technica Microline replicates the master disc more accurately than all other cartridges.
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