MicroLine Or Shibata Which Is ‘Better’?

[patient_ot]

I have a shibata on a cartridge I bought recently that I am LOVING, in part because of its tone. @johnjhazel notes in a previous post that preferences for shibata can come down to "voicing seems to be more important than accuracy (to some people)", and I must be one of those people. The cartridges I've had that use a different advanced cut (AT440mlb and mla) both sounded edgy and shrill to me such that I traded them away in favor of plain-jane ellipticals. For me in my system the tone and lack of shrill highs are most important. I certainly get why the other cuts are considered better or more advanced.

Hell, I love a good conical. There is something about the voicing/tone that I crave in my cartridges. My current shibata tip is goldilocks for me.

The resistance and inductance of a cartridge have a huge effect on the overall sound but most people don't understand this or the importance of loading. The 440 carts need low capacitance, and the only way I could get that series close to flat was to take the resistive loading down from 47K. When I used the 440 stylus as a daily driver I loaded it at 39K.

The ML cart I am using now has a very neutral frequency response (as measured) with 100pf + 47K + low capacitance cables.

 

[ArDrakho]

My favorite cartridge for the "best" soundscape is the Stanton D74S [Stereohedron .3x2.8 (8x71)]--I do enjoy the Pickering/Stanton family cartridges.

On my P-mount rig, I use the Audio-Technica ATN-140ML [MicroLine Nude Square Shank], which I alternate on occasion with the Audio-Technica ATN-152LP [Linear Contact Nude Square Shank (0.12 mil)]...both create great sound; however, I prefer the microline (not by much). I wish I had a few Audio-Technica ATN-152MLP [MicroLine Nude Square Shank} styli...love to see if I can hear a difference with ATN-152LP. Maybe one day!

A lot of good information provided by others--great read!!

 

[lini]

In my view the Shibata tip shape foremost was interesting because of its simplicity - i.e., it basically offers a pretty easy way to create a reasonably good line-contact type tip shape by applying only two extra facets and a bit of polishing to a spherical tip.

Oh, and I think one should't overinterpret its curvedness. I mean, yes, those two facets do create a curved side profile, but where things really become relevant, i.e. at the contact areas, that curvature is rather minimal. Or in other words, if one looks at a Shibata tip, one can certainly notice the curved side profile, but one shouldn't forget, that the whole tip is way larger than its actual contact areas pretty close to the very tip of the tip.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[perryinva]

When I had Shibata tips back in the day, and was playing a lot more records, the Shibata was the only tip that I really noticed a change in sound as it wore. But then, I only had one TT (Dual 1219), and VTA was not adjustable without shims, something no one fooled with. Fast forward to today and what I notice most is how clean a play can be (or not) depending on the tip and the record. New and clean records have less groove noise with SAS type but setup is critical. I find HE is actually better for old records that likely have groove damage & were likely played with conical tops at higher VTFs. The “play a lower untouched part of the groove” theory. I’ve a few LPs that look unplayable but are surprisingly listenable on my 1219 with a V15II with an HE tip. Put the same LP on my 721 w/V15III and OE or SAS, or my YP-D8 with an SAS and it is unlistenable. Put on the vandeHul on the YP-D8 and it is about as good as the 1219. On those records, the tonal differences are dwarfed by the noise difference.

 

[ETI_5000]

Don: From the German distributor: https://www.ortofon-elite.de/main.php?prod=mc30supreme&cat=classic&lang=de

From a french forum: https://www.audiovintage.fr/leforum/download/file.php?id=72489&sid=18b0aa26088e3d3820b9acabde5ae5b0

German hifi wiki page: https://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Ortofon_MC_30_Supreme

8 µm minor radius would simply appear too fat for me to justify the Super prefix...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: And yup, it seems a bit unfortunate, that one can never be quite sure, whether the published data on the Ortofon web site are correct.

Thanks, Manfred. It’s obviously another case of an Ortofon employee getting some numbers reversed – 6 x 80 becomes 8 x 60! Easily done, I suppose.

Incidentally, the linked brochure at the bottom of the German Ortofon distributor's page for the MC 30 Supreme had plenty of Ortofon MC cartridges, but not that particular model.

Here’s my latest list, since I’ve lost the ability to edit the previous list:

• 0.1 x 2.9 mil / 2.5 x 75 μm – Micro-Ridge II (Namiki), Microline 1 (AT), SAS (Jico)
• 0.12 x 2.2 mil / 3 x 56 μm – Microline II (AT)
• 0.12 x 1.2 mil / 3 x 30μm – PA (Ogura)
• 0.14 x 3.3 mil / 3.5 x 85μm – van den Hul 1 (vdH)
• 0.15 x 3 mil / 3.8 x 75 μm – Micro-Ridge 1 (Namiki – as used by Shure, Grace etc)
• 0.15 x 2.5 mil / 3.8 x 64μm – ‘Extended Contact Elliptical’ (ADC – as used on Astrion, manufactured by Namiki, according to the Astrion designer, an AK member)
• 0.16 x 2.8 mil / 4 x 70μm – van den Hul II (vdH)
• 0.18 x 3.9 mil / 4.5 x 100μm – Orto-Line (Ortofon, as used on Rohmann & MC 7500)
• 0.2 x 4.7 mil / 5 x 120 μm – Fritz Gyger S, Fritz Gyger 120 (FG)
• 0.2 x 3.9 mil / 5 x 100 μm – Replicant 100 (Ortofon – tip “designed and produced in close collaboration with Ortofon Swiss diamond supplier, Fritz Gyger”)
• 0.2 x 3.5 mil / 5 x 90 μm – Fritz Gyger 90 (FG)
• 0.2 x 3.1 mil / 5 x 80 μm – Fritz Gyger 80 (FG)
• 0.2 x 3 mil / 5 x 76 μm – Stereohedron IIb (Stanton – as used on Epoch II)
• 0.2 x 2.8 mil / 5 x 70 μm – Fritz Gyger II, Fritz Gyger 70 (FG)
• 0.2 x 1.5 mil / 5 x 38 μm – Hyper(bolic)Elliptical, Hyper-Ridge (Shure)
• 0.24 x 3.1 mil / 6 x 80 μm – Super Fine Line (Ortofon – as used on MC 30 Supreme)
• 0.24 x 3 mil / 6 x 75 μm – Shibata 1 (Namiki/JVC design, manufactured by Namiki, and named after JVC engineer Norio Shibata), Vivid Line (LPGear)
• 0.24 x 2 mil / 6 x 50 μm – Shibata II (Namiki/JVC)
• 0.24 x 1.6 mil / 6 x 40 μm – Shibata III (Type III – Namiki)
• 0.25 x 1.5 mil / 6 x 38 μm – Aliptic (ADC)
• 0.3 x 3 mil / 7 x 75 μm – LAC (Empire – Large Area of Contact), Stereohedron IIa (Pickering/Stanton), Pathemax (Sonus)
• 0.3 x 2.8 mil / 7 x 72 μm – Stereohedron 1 (Pickering/Stanton)
• 0.3 x 2 mil / 7 x 50 μm – Parabolic 1 (EEI), Pramanik (B&O – CD-4 tip named after B&O engineer Subir Pramanik), PAROC (Weinz – PAROC = PARabolic Oval Cone, as used by the legendary late Garrott Brothers, the world’s first aftermarket stylus retippers, it had a superb mirror-like polish for very low record wear, due to Dr Weinz’s patented diamond polishing technique, and after his death in 1980, they had ‘Weinz’ tips made to the same design, dimensions and a similar polish by a Japanese supplier).
• 0.28 x 1.5 mil / 7 x 38 μm – ‘Line Contact’, Special Line Contact (Audio-Technica)
• 0.31 x 3 mil / 8 x 75 μm – Parabolic II (EEI)
• 0.31 x 1.6 mil / 8 x 40 μm – Fine Line (Ortofon), ‘Special (Contour) Elliptical’ (Yamaha)

 

[kirk57]

LP Gear Web Site Examples:
Nude Super MicroLine diamond tip radius: .000079 x .0031 inch.
Stylus tip radius: The Vessel Stylus A3SS Nude Super Shibata: .00016 x .0028 inch

From the dimensions given on LP Gear’s Site it’s obvious that the ML has a finer dimension than the Shibata. Is it the complex shape or the number of facets that makes the Shibata a more expensive stylus? Which performs better? Which has a longer life?

I need some clarity. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

The profile across the groove is smaller for the Micro Line than for the Shibata (.000079 < .00016) and the length of the stylus is just about the same for both.

I can’t say for sure it’s all down to the stylus shape, but the one I’ve settled on is a micro line AT 150mlx. Second would be a Pickering XSV-3000 with original ‘Stereohedron’ which if memory serves is some kind of Shibata. The Audio Technica gets my vote for total lack of inner groove distortion, provided it’s set up correctly, and very quiet in the groove assuming of course the record is clean. It also seems to play a part of the groove which is not played by conical or elliptical styli, so even rough looking surfaces can play surprisingly clean. This is less true for the Stereohedron Pickering.

 

[Vinylmasters]

My favorite cartridge for the "best" soundscape is the Stanton D74S [Stereohedron .3x2.8 (8x71)]--I do enjoy the Pickering/Stanton family cartridges.

On my P-mount rig, I use the Audio-Technica ATN-140ML [MicroLine Nude Square Shank], which I alternate on occasion with the Audio-Technica ATN-152LP [Linear Contact Nude Square Shank (0.12 mil)]...both create great sound; however, I prefer the microline (not by much). I wish I had a few Audio-Technica ATN-152MLP [MicroLine Nude Square Shank} styli...love to see if I can hear a difference with ATN-152LP. Maybe one day!

A lot of good information provided by others--great read!!

I'm 'new' to Pickering/Stanton, but recently picked up some Stanton L7x7's with original styli (D72E, D73E and D74S), and compared to the aftermarket styli I had is like night and day. The originals have the closest thing to a true live sound I have heard to date (good GAWD the low end on those is INCREDIBLE!!), rather than trying to sound like 'tape'.

I have a AT 152MLP on a AT 142 cart. Have one of the original AT ML's for the current AT p-mounts as well (the one LP Gear was selling). A VERY good cart, but as a daily player it can tend to be a bit bright, like most 'special' styli tend to be.

I'll say it again: LP Gear would make a bundle if they offered a nude stylus option (maybe a boron cantilever too!).

 

[johnjhazel]

I'm 'new' to Pickering/Stanton, but recently picked up some Stanton L7x7's with original styli (D72E, D73E and D74S), and compared to the aftermarket styli I had is like night and day. The originals have the closest thing to a true live sound I have heard to date (good GAWD the low end on those is INCREDIBLE!!), rather than trying to sound like 'tape'.

I have a AT 152MLP on a AT 142 cart. Have one of the original AT ML's for the current AT p-mounts as well (the one LP Gear was selling). A VERY good cart, but as a daily player it can tend to be a bit bright, like most 'special' styli tend to be.

I'll say it again: LP Gear would make a bundle if they offered a nude stylus option (maybe a boron cantilever too!).

LPGear/LPTunes would have to get JICO to make those for them. And JICO would have to have one of their suppliers supply the nude tips. It is possible. And of course the bean counters and business analysts would contribute their thoughts on ROI. You should suggest it. I suggested to my contact at Pfanstiehl that they offer more 0.2 x 0.7 tipped models. And they are working on it.

 

[Vinylmasters]

LPGear/LPTunes would have to get JICO to make those for them. And JICO would have to have one of their suppliers supply the nude tips. It is possible. And of course the bean counters and business analysts would contribute their thoughts on ROI. You should suggest it. I suggested to my contact at Pfanstiehl that they offer more 0.2 x 0.7 tipped models. And they are working on it.

In this day and age? They'd basically corner the market IMHO. make 'em 'to order' if you have to. Still worth it!

I wish someone would make replacement stylus guards too! I'd think someone could recreate them with a 3D printer easily enough?

 

[johnjhazel]

In this day and age? They'd basically corner the market IMHO. make 'em 'to order' if you have to. Still worth it!

I wish someone would make replacement stylus guards too! I'd think someone could recreate them with a #D printer easily enough?

A 3D or whatever the latest is in printers would be a great way to make stylus guards as molds are very expensive to make. 0.2 x 0.7 tips can possibly be sourced and certainly can be ground. As most know, the 0.2 x 0.7 tip was extremely popular a few decades ago. I can hear the difference between a 0.2 x 0.7 and 0.3 x 0.7 tip. I know that I have seen Pfanstiehl 0.2 x 0.7 tips on some Pfanstiehls that were sourced from Switzerland for Shure cartridges. They were most likely for the M91, M95, or M97 cartridges. I can either look some more or email Pfanstiehl. My Pfanstiehl model and pricing sheets do not specify tip size. What I was told is that the grinders they use to make elliptical tips are broken. I think this occurred all the way back in May. Pfanstiehl then supplied some elliptical tips from Japan to at least produce some VN35E's and VN45E's. Pfanstiehl is HUCO's biggest customer with much influence, so if and when things get back to normal, Pfanstiehl will get their back orders satisfied first. EVG may not receive any ellipticals for quite a while. It depends on production. It is too bad that when JICO cut off EVG that the Swiss manufacturer became the only avaiable supplier. There is nothing wrong with the product but Pfanstiehl has been around for more than 90 years and most people are more familiar with the Pfanstiehl name. EVG had the advantage of selling the Japanese product at the same prices as the Swiss product. When EVG switched to the Swiss product, their sales dropped. Pfanstiehl sells about 30 times the number of needles that EVG sells. It would be great if Pfanstiehl could bring the production of the magnetic needles to their factory in Rockford, IL. There, they produce needles for ceramic cartridges and the GE VR II and RPX. .

 

[gusten]

Personally I mostly use AT`s 0.2x0.7 nude needles, I´m quite fond of their quality. I also like their Shibatas, the older ones like ATN 15Sla; use them now and then. Can imagine if some like the microridge more, but probably not by much.

 

[Vinylmasters]

A 3D or whatever the latest is in printers would be a great way to make stylus guards as molds are very expensive to make. 0.2 x 0.7 tips can possibly be sourced and certainly can be ground. As most know, the 0.2 x 0.7 tip was extremely popular a few decades ago. I can hear the difference between a 0.2 x 0.7 and 0.3 x 0.7 tip. I know that I have seen Pfanstiehl 0.2 x 0.7 tips on some Pfanstiehls that were sourced from Switzerland for Shure cartridges. They were most likely for the M91, M95, or M97 cartridges. I can either look some more or email Pfanstiehl. My Pfanstiehl model and pricing sheets do not specify tip size. What I was told is that the grinders they use to make elliptical tips are broken. I think this occurred all the way back in May. Pfanstiehl then supplied some elliptical tips from Japan to at least produce some VN35E's and VN45E's. Pfanstiehl is HUCO's biggest customer with much influence, so if and when things get back to normal, Pfanstiehl will get their back orders satisfied first. EVG may not receive any ellipticals for quite a while. It depends on production. It is too bad that when JICO cut off EVG that the Swiss manufacturer became the only avaiable supplier. There is nothing wrong with the product but Pfanstiehl has been around for more than 90 years and most people are more familiar with the Pfanstiehl name. EVG had the advantage of selling the Japanese product at the same prices as the Swiss product. When EVG switched to the Swiss product, their sales dropped. Pfanstiehl sells about 30 times the number of needles that EVG sells. It would be great if Pfanstiehl could bring the production of the magnetic needles to their factory in Rockford, IL. There, they produce needles for ceramic cartridges and the GE VR II and RPX. .

I think the only Pfan HE I have is a 4213-HE for the newer style AT p-mounts I grabbed a few years back, Swiss made, it states the tip to be 'hyperbolic'. It's OK? Not as open as the original AT-92e, but less sibilance and IGD anyway.

 

[johnjhazel]

I think the only Pfan HE I have is a 4213-HE for the newer style AT p-mounts I grabbed a few years back, Swiss made, it states the tip to be 'hyperbolic'. It's OK? Not as open as the original AT-92e, but less sibilance and IGD anyway.

Pfanstiehl sold a few 'exotic' tips some years ago. It did not work out. It's a big leap going from inexpensive conicals and ellipticals to hyperellipticals, Shibata, and whatever else, if anything, that they offered. I would imagine that their customer base at the time would not support it. Those expensive tips are JICO territory.
I think if Pfanstiehl offers the 0.2 x 0.7 tip size, there will be a market for it.

 

[ArDrakho]

I have a AT 152MLP on a AT 142 cart. Have one of the original AT ML's for the current AT p-mounts as well (the one LP Gear was selling). A VERY good cart, but as a daily player it can tend to be a bit bright, like most 'special' styli tend to be.

That was true as well for brightness by my Audio-Technica ATN-140ML; once it played for about 50 hours and still playing, it sounds great and seems to be getting broken in since it was NOS. Same for my ATN-152LP and ATN-155LC styli.