MM carts at 1g, MC carts at 2g. How much record wear?

[gary7]

I've noticed most record listening AKer's talk about using the least VTF to get good sound. I've noticed most better MM carts run 3/4 to 1.25 g. Now many say that MC carts have better sound. I have noticed most run higher VTF in the 2.0g range. I'm assuming that these MC have a lower compliance than the MM carts. Looking at this, will the MC carts result in more record wear than the MM carts? Or, is there not enough difference in weight, provided the cart is set up properly, that the wear will be minimal. Thoughts?

 

[4-2-7]

I'v never notice any difference in tracking force with new mm opposed to new mc carts.
However I can see longer break-in and life span with mc carts do to most cantilever and suspension, material and design. ie: Boron and rubber.

Where as mm stylies are metal, aluminum bent in a mounting tube and are not as ridged.

But for the most part we're talking about 1 or 2 tenths of a gram according to what your saying. But I have to say I'v never had a cartridge mm or mc that I used below 1.5g and over 2.0g. The high side would be for break-in the low side is about minimum for foot falls and trackability.

Record ware happens more with dirty record, quality of the table and arm, dirty stylus and the quality of the stylus/cartridge, over say 2-3 tenths of a gram TF.

 

[marcmorin]

it comes down to actual load on the vinyl. Load is force over area (F/A). if exact area of diamond is touching the vinyl of the two, the higher load will cause faster wear..........in theory......... Extended contact types have a larger area of contact, reducing the F/A
Vinyl is pretty resilient. was formulated as a medium when 5-7 grams, was the norm

 

[Blue Shadow]

Going with the lowest tracking force is a recipe for disaster. The lowest force for a cartridge is for the best arms and most old gear doesn't have this any more. That light force leads to mistracking and poor sound quality. That mistracking is damaging the record. Many reviews indicate about the max tracking force recommended yields the best sound quality. I don't concern myself with the rest order wear using below 2.5grams tracking force as I have records i have played forever that sound great.

 

[jeffpaletz]

Same here. I have many old records that were played a lot with tracking at 2 to 3 grams. That's not enough weight to do any damage. For fun I've been using an old Magnavox mono system which has an old Garrard turntable that tracks at 5 grams. No wear issues.

 

[gary7]

I did not mean to track as low as a cart is rated. I'm just wondering about the carts average Low-High settings that most MM carts (and it may be I'm looking at older carts), seem to have lower overall VTF settings than MC. My concern was that the MC at the heavier weight would cause more wear than the MM carts.

 

[marcmorin]

I did not mean to track as low as a cart is rated. I'm just wondering about the carts average Low-High settings that most MM carts (and it may be I'm looking at older carts), seem to have lower overall VTF settings than MC. My concern was that the MC at the heavier weight would cause more wear than the MM carts.

Most of the "top shelf" MMs were designed when low mass arms were the rage......but it came down to chicken/egg. low tracking weight carts (high compliance) led to lower mass arms being built. Prichard, Shure, Grado let the charge in the 60's of high compliance, low tracking weight......compliance numbers sometimes in the 50's. 2-3 grams in the late 50's was a super light tracking weight. 17-25 range is pretty much the norm of most MM's these days, asking for a light-medium mass, to medium mass. Only a few of my older carts in my inventory would play on my Mayware. While were on the subject, excluding any discussion on TIM, a .4 X .7 basic elliptical will produce 1/4 of the surface pressure of a .2 X .7 diamond.

 

[Northwinds]

My MC carts track at 1.5gr or less no issues

 

[ranch 22b]

When I was considering buying the Denon DL-103 (tracks at 2.5 grams), I had a concern that it might damage my records. But most of what I read suggested otherwise. I decided not to worry about it, bought one and love it.

 

[twiiii]

The tracking pressure debate really heated up when the Shure V-15 came into production, though some ADC and Audio Technica cartridges were promoted to have even lower tracking pressures. At work we couldn't get consistent results so we bought a WILD Stereo microscope, bought response and tracking calibrated discs, and Sound technology test equipment to confirm performance. What we found were a bunch of stylus mounted incorrectly, bent cantilevers and units that did not meet specs right out of the Box. None of the cartridges could track higher velocities at lower tracking pressures, in fact almost all o them had to be with in a few tenths of a gram of max pressure. linear tracking tone arms allowed for lower pressures and became very popular. Remember no matter what cartridge you own its better to track at a little higher pressure and maintain contact with the groove than to allow mis-tracking which can destroy the groove and cause premature wear of the stylus. Todays modern stylus shapes distribute the pressure over a larger area of the groove insuring less likely hood of damage to the groove, than previous elliptical shapes. I would much rather track at 2.1 grams with my Dynavector, than the 1.5 grams with my former Stanaton 681EEE. I really liked my 981 HLZ at 1.5 grams; it tracked almost as well as my Shure V-15 MKV. Though my 20X2 HO isn't rated in the same league with the Stantons and Shures; I have yet to hear it fail tracking any LP I own, a few of which could give my former Stanton a real challenge in the inner grooves. Of course the Shure is the tracking champion from late 70's and 80s. But with the fine line or Micro ridge profile the Dynavector performs effortlessly.

I had some Angel, RCA, and Deutsch Grammaphone lps from my previous record collection that could really challenge a modern pick-up. Thankfully they are all gone. My current second collection though smaller but still growing has none of those issues. When I do come across a disc with the hole off centered, slightly warped, or with a noisy background, into the trash it goes. The world just doesn't need to be reminded of the compromises of the past.

 

[SSaxdude]

I stopped worrying about record wear and what is a "safe" VTF. As long as it doesn't mistrack and sounds good, then everything is fine.

 

[willboy]

I'm not concerned in the slightest about record wear. I have records from the early 70's that I've played numerous times with cheap styli and turntables, which is something one tends to do when money's tight and you can't afford to buy many records, and they still sound great. Nowadays I'm more concerned about stylus wear due to heavier tracking force as many styli, especially MC, ain't exactly cheap are they. Can't say I lose much sleep about it though.

 

[sreten]

I've noticed most record listening AKer's talk about using the least VTF to get good sound.
Thoughts?

Hi,

They should not be. They should be talking about the best tracking force
to avoid mistracking. This is nearly always towards the top end of the
recommended tracking force range, and it is compliance dependant.

FWIW :
around 5cu around 2.7g
around 10cu around 2g
around 20cu around 1.5g

Tip mass comes into the equation and alters the above.

rgds, sreten.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Same here. I have many old records that were played a lot with tracking at 2 to 3 grams. That's not enough weight to do any damage. For fun I've been using an old Magnavox mono system which has an old Garrard turntable that tracks at 5 grams. No wear issues.

Your Magnavox has a Collaro record changer, they never installed Garrards. Unless retrofitted or they used them pre 1958.

 

[WaynerN]

As many here have stated, the VTF really isn't the issue, it's the stylus's journey. A chattering stylus, caused by several sources other then VTF will eat vinyl grooves. A chattering stylus can be caused by incorrect VTF, but more then likely can be caused by problems with anti-skate, azimuth, alignment and even an incompatible arm raising hell with the cantilever's suspension. Dirt in the record or on the stylus is also the enemy.

I also almost never drop the needle in the middle of a song. I always use the arm's cue lever when raising or lowering the arm. I also always lock the arm into place to prevent accidents, when (not in use).

 

[MRL_Audio]

Got bigger things to worry about than the perceived 1 gram difference between MM and MC. I start in the middle of the Mfg recommendation and go from there if it doesn't sound good or right. Have a "general" preference for MC but I have heard some outstanding music delivered from MM/MI as well. It's all good in my book.

 

[gary7]

Well, what I'm trying to decide on is for my Dual CS5000 TT. I have on it a B&O MMC50EN MM on a 1/2" mount with suggested VTF at 1.2g andalso have a Audio Technica AT30E LOMC with suggested VTF of 1.4-2.0g. I would probably run it in the 1.8g area. So far I have liked the B&O. But want to try the AT. Just was a little concerned about the TF. But what has been said it might not be much to worry about.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

For the Dual CS 5000, I recommend getting an Ortofon OM 10-OM 40 or any between. Optimal for that tonearm. Also the Audio-Technica AT 100 to AT 150 line or the Shure M97xE are great choices. I'd stick to MM on this Dual.

 

[gary7]

For the Dual CS 5000, I recommend getting an Ortofon OM 10-OM 40 or any between. Optimal for that tonearm. Also the Audio-Technica AT 100 to AT 150 line or the Shure M97xE are great choices. I'd stick to MM on this Dual.

That has crossed my mind. I do have a few OM bodys that the styluses met dastardly ends. That would be later as budget permits.

 

[jmchrislip]

I use a Denon DL-103 and am not concerned about excessive record wear. I think idea regarding excessive record wear with higher tracking cartridges got started in the 70's when high compliance cartridges were suddenly popular. I love my DL-103 and wouldn't have another cartridge.