Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
It's an interesting report. Maybe your preamps can manage what most others can't.
MM Phono input vs. MC Phono input
- Thread starter MarSanZ
- Start date
It's an interesting report. Maybe your preamps can manage what most others can't.
arcorob
Addicted Member
Good idea...
Not to try that is. As far as capacitance loading vs cart loading (ohms)
Whew..I would not know how to explain it in English an sending you to Jim Hagermans site might just make your brain hurt. LOL
The ohms settings on MC carts I can explain where the higher the setting the more open the cart (less resistance) I know , seems counter intuitive , right ?
But say an MC cart says >100ohms..100 ohms would be the minimum so one would try 121, 150, etc. till you get the most detail and sound without hitting fatigue or screechy highs...too low and it would be a bit muddy..
There are folks here MUCH better versed in I am who can explain capacitance loading, cable length issues, etc. for MM carts
For knowledge and pain...
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
Not to try that is. As far as capacitance loading vs cart loading (ohms)
Whew..I would not know how to explain it in English an sending you to Jim Hagermans site might just make your brain hurt. LOL
The ohms settings on MC carts I can explain where the higher the setting the more open the cart (less resistance) I know , seems counter intuitive , right ?
But say an MC cart says >100ohms..100 ohms would be the minimum so one would try 121, 150, etc. till you get the most detail and sound without hitting fatigue or screechy highs...too low and it would be a bit muddy..
There are folks here MUCH better versed in I am who can explain capacitance loading, cable length issues, etc. for MM carts
For knowledge and pain...
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
Can you calculate what I have going on with my Blackbird/SOTA head amp into the MM side of the pre. I have no desorption and it sounds so sweet.
arcorob
Addicted Member
Good post
Just wanted to point out THIS "Capacitive loading applies only to MM cartridges" is no longer considered true.
It is found that cables can be an issue which is why in the phenomena, the capacitance loading is still engaged when using MC and ohms settings. There is actually a pretty good whitepaper on this...
Here is the rule:
The capacitance of the input of the Phono Stage should more or less match the value of the cartridge (this rule was adopted more for MM)....the higher the capacitance of the input of the phono stage the duller the sound will be and the lower the capacitance of the phono input is the brighter the sound gets....as mentioned this plays more of a role with MM but is said to have effects on MC too.....in which you would adjust the loading to a higher value in most cases. Jonathan Carr of Lyra wrote a nice paper on the subject and some will apply and some will not.....however it comes down to what your ears likes!!
Just wanted to point out THIS "Capacitive loading applies only to MM cartridges" is no longer considered true.
It is found that cables can be an issue which is why in the phenomena, the capacitance loading is still engaged when using MC and ohms settings. There is actually a pretty good whitepaper on this...
Here is the rule:
The capacitance of the input of the Phono Stage should more or less match the value of the cartridge (this rule was adopted more for MM)....the higher the capacitance of the input of the phono stage the duller the sound will be and the lower the capacitance of the phono input is the brighter the sound gets....as mentioned this plays more of a role with MM but is said to have effects on MC too.....in which you would adjust the loading to a higher value in most cases. Jonathan Carr of Lyra wrote a nice paper on the subject and some will apply and some will not.....however it comes down to what your ears likes!!
From Sterophile on the C200 same phono specks
Hard-core phonography
The C200 contains both MM and MC phono stages. The MC stage, capable of handling low-output cartridges, uses two step-up transformers whose coils are wound with silver wire and double mu-metal shielding. No details are provided regarding the MM stage, which uses standard 47k ohm loading and offers 65pF of capacitance. But somewhere along the line, McIntosh made a strange choice in implementing the C200's MC stage: the input is hardwired with a 10 ohm load.
I definitely prefer loading my Dynavector XV-1S cartridge down—usually to somewhere between 100 and 250 ohms, depending on the phono section in question—but the 10 ohm load offered by the Mac was simply too much of a muchness. The sound of the MC section was dark and diffuse, with imprecise imaging, all of which I immediately suspected was due to the cartridge being loaded down too far. I cross-checked the Mac's phono stage against my reference Manley Steelhead, with its easily adjustable loading, and got generally similar results with the Steelhead dialed down to 25 ohms (footnote 1).
I should point out that the Mac's MC stage was exceptionally quiet and had more than enough gain for the 320µV Dynavector, which is quite impressive. So I'm afraid the grade is "Incomplete" for the MC stage. If it's possible to get the review sample set up with loading appropriate for my reference cartridge, I would love to audition the Mac again. Presumably, Mac dealers can provide and install suitable resistors for C200 owners, as all MC cartridges (and their owners) are certainly not created equal in terms of loading preference, and 10 ohms will be too low for most.
What might be lurking in the C200's MC stage is highly intriguing, based on what I heard from the MM stage as driven by a Dynavector PHA-100 step-up amplifier I borrowed from WallyTools' Wally Malewicz, the Analog Guru. The PHA-100 got the gain up to where it could drive the Mac's MM input, and it also matched the impedance to the input's impedance. The first paragraph of my listening notes began "Now here is the kind of sound I'd have expected from the Mac through the MC input." (The following comments on the phono stage all pertain to the head-amp-into-MM input configuration.)
"Genesis Hall," from Fairport Convention's Unhalfbricking (UK LP, Island ILPS 9102), had a lovely sparkle on the acoustic guitars and a gentle shimmer to Martin Lamble's cymbals. Sandy Denny's voice was beautifully focused on "Autopsy," her clear alto soaring and touchably real. Massenet's Meditation from Tha;dis and Elgar's Dream Children, from Raymond Agoult and the London Proms Clair de Lune (LP, RCA Victor/Classic LSC-2326), had great hall detail, the strings opulent and diaphanous. Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony's warhorse recording of Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade (LP, RCA Victor/Classic LSC-2446) had elbow room for all the players on that enormously wide Chicago stage. The record's famously sweeping dynamics and brass power were dispatched easily and most satisfyingly.
Neither did the Mac turn its nose up at rowdy rock'n'roll. Jack Bruce's roaringly
aggressive, perpetually hyperactive bass playing and his celestial clouds of backing vocals on "Pollution Woman," from West, Bruce & Laing's Why Dontcha (LP, Windfall/Columbia KC 31929), were marvelous. The criminally underappreciated Leslie West's singing, wailing, Les-Paul-Junior-plus-Marshall lead guitar was a mixture of silk and broken glass. While no sonic triumph, this track is all about pure power. The C200 effortlessly lifted the weight. Talking Heads' "The Great Curve," from Remain In Light (LP, Sire SRK 6095), presents complexity and power, with its dense rhythm bed, layers of polyrhythmic percussion, and multiple vocals doing a singularly funky counterpoint. The C200's presentation was superbly organized and timbrally spot-on.
Soundstaging was excellent, although not the equal of the Steelhead or the Halcro's MC input, especially in terms of front-to-back depth—but I'm talking here about the MM input, not the far more elaborately engineered MC input. While it may be just a bit darkish at times, the MM input offered very gratifying performance driven by the Dynavector PHA-100.
Footnote 1: Like the Mac's MC stage, the Steelhead's uses a transformer as a step-up device. After working through the comparison myself, I asked WallyTools' Wally Malewicz whether the dark, somewhat murky sound could be the result of too much loading, and his answer was an unqualified "yes." Per Wally, who has extensive experience with the Dynavector XV-1 and XV-1S, "You should never load this cartridge down below 100 ohms. It will sound terrible."—Paul Bolin
Hard-core phonography
The C200 contains both MM and MC phono stages. The MC stage, capable of handling low-output cartridges, uses two step-up transformers whose coils are wound with silver wire and double mu-metal shielding. No details are provided regarding the MM stage, which uses standard 47k ohm loading and offers 65pF of capacitance. But somewhere along the line, McIntosh made a strange choice in implementing the C200's MC stage: the input is hardwired with a 10 ohm load.
I definitely prefer loading my Dynavector XV-1S cartridge down—usually to somewhere between 100 and 250 ohms, depending on the phono section in question—but the 10 ohm load offered by the Mac was simply too much of a muchness. The sound of the MC section was dark and diffuse, with imprecise imaging, all of which I immediately suspected was due to the cartridge being loaded down too far. I cross-checked the Mac's phono stage against my reference Manley Steelhead, with its easily adjustable loading, and got generally similar results with the Steelhead dialed down to 25 ohms (footnote 1).
I should point out that the Mac's MC stage was exceptionally quiet and had more than enough gain for the 320µV Dynavector, which is quite impressive. So I'm afraid the grade is "Incomplete" for the MC stage. If it's possible to get the review sample set up with loading appropriate for my reference cartridge, I would love to audition the Mac again. Presumably, Mac dealers can provide and install suitable resistors for C200 owners, as all MC cartridges (and their owners) are certainly not created equal in terms of loading preference, and 10 ohms will be too low for most.
What might be lurking in the C200's MC stage is highly intriguing, based on what I heard from the MM stage as driven by a Dynavector PHA-100 step-up amplifier I borrowed from WallyTools' Wally Malewicz, the Analog Guru. The PHA-100 got the gain up to where it could drive the Mac's MM input, and it also matched the impedance to the input's impedance. The first paragraph of my listening notes began "Now here is the kind of sound I'd have expected from the Mac through the MC input." (The following comments on the phono stage all pertain to the head-amp-into-MM input configuration.)
"Genesis Hall," from Fairport Convention's Unhalfbricking (UK LP, Island ILPS 9102), had a lovely sparkle on the acoustic guitars and a gentle shimmer to Martin Lamble's cymbals. Sandy Denny's voice was beautifully focused on "Autopsy," her clear alto soaring and touchably real. Massenet's Meditation from Tha;dis and Elgar's Dream Children, from Raymond Agoult and the London Proms Clair de Lune (LP, RCA Victor/Classic LSC-2326), had great hall detail, the strings opulent and diaphanous. Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony's warhorse recording of Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade (LP, RCA Victor/Classic LSC-2446) had elbow room for all the players on that enormously wide Chicago stage. The record's famously sweeping dynamics and brass power were dispatched easily and most satisfyingly.
Neither did the Mac turn its nose up at rowdy rock'n'roll. Jack Bruce's roaringly
aggressive, perpetually hyperactive bass playing and his celestial clouds of backing vocals on "Pollution Woman," from West, Bruce & Laing's Why Dontcha (LP, Windfall/Columbia KC 31929), were marvelous. The criminally underappreciated Leslie West's singing, wailing, Les-Paul-Junior-plus-Marshall lead guitar was a mixture of silk and broken glass. While no sonic triumph, this track is all about pure power. The C200 effortlessly lifted the weight. Talking Heads' "The Great Curve," from Remain In Light (LP, Sire SRK 6095), presents complexity and power, with its dense rhythm bed, layers of polyrhythmic percussion, and multiple vocals doing a singularly funky counterpoint. The C200's presentation was superbly organized and timbrally spot-on.
Soundstaging was excellent, although not the equal of the Steelhead or the Halcro's MC input, especially in terms of front-to-back depth—but I'm talking here about the MM input, not the far more elaborately engineered MC input. While it may be just a bit darkish at times, the MM input offered very gratifying performance driven by the Dynavector PHA-100.
Footnote 1: Like the Mac's MC stage, the Steelhead's uses a transformer as a step-up device. After working through the comparison myself, I asked WallyTools' Wally Malewicz whether the dark, somewhat murky sound could be the result of too much loading, and his answer was an unqualified "yes." Per Wally, who has extensive experience with the Dynavector XV-1 and XV-1S, "You should never load this cartridge down below 100 ohms. It will sound terrible."—Paul Bolin
Tedrick
Infinity-phile
While I agree that capacitance effects all cartridges, it is much less important than resistive loading with respect to LOMC's. If you use a low-capacitance phono cable, it's generally a non-issue.
For the purposes of Quicksand's question, phono stages are primarily about gain and resistive loading, because very few of them even offer adjustable capacitive loading.
arcorob
Addicted Member
Tedrick..I agree
It is still commonly accepted that it is pretty negligible in MC carts...was just throwing out the data...LOL
And yes, I personally use good cables...:yes:
It is still commonly accepted that it is pretty negligible in MC carts...was just throwing out the data...LOL
And yes, I personally use good cables...:yes:
Tedrick
Infinity-phile
Not sure what you're asking for, but it sounds like the Sota Head Amp is a nice MC step-up transformer that works really well with your Blackbird.
Ya but Im not trying to fry anything.
I have two decks both Blackbirds
One into the MC stage of the preamp which is rated 10 ohms
The other Blackbird as stated above.
But you don't sound to concern so i'm not doing wrong?
Tedrick
Infinity-phile
No, your setup with the Sota appears to be correct. Step-up transformers are intended to be fed into a MM phono stage.
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
All you have to do is look at the difference in output between the two cartridges, and you've answered your own question re. volume. And yes, it's perfectly normal.
And a step-up transformer is used for MC cartridges that have less than 1mV output.
quicksand
Active Member
Spot on with the guess Bob it is a Rega cartridge - I am looking into a Meitner PA6 preamp.
By the sounds of it no matter how I slice it I will be needing a low output cartridge - kind of what I figured. Just was hoping to use it for a bit and I would have bet lunch that the volume knob would have some control over the higher output cartridge into a low input - guess not.
I dusted this off and it took a few days to get legs again - good to see!
By the sounds of it no matter how I slice it I will be needing a low output cartridge - kind of what I figured. Just was hoping to use it for a bit and I would have bet lunch that the volume knob would have some control over the higher output cartridge into a low input - guess not.
I dusted this off and it took a few days to get legs again - good to see!
Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
I don't know for sure that the output will be the deal-breaker. It's one thing to be able to attenuate like a volume knob and yet another to get the load right. The Rega wants to see impedance of 47k Ohm. A MC-only phono preamp wouldn't likely have 47k as an option.
Tedrick
Infinity-phile
Not sure what you mean by this. If you're referring to resistive loading of the cartridge, the cartridge is the only thing that see's this load. Changing the resistive load or using a load that is not optimal for the cartridge you've selected won't harm anything, but it may alter the sound character of the cartridge. If you are referring to gain, the amount of gain you should use is dependent on the output of the cartridge type selected i.e. MM/MI/HOMC vs. LOMC.
quicksand
Active Member
Ted, this is what I was referring to:
I would have to assume you are saying that down the line refers to the speakers - possibly the amp. Am I correct in thinking this? Or is it I just might not be getting the optimal sound quality with the high output into a low input.
Starting to feel dense here...
I would have to assume you are saying that down the line refers to the speakers - possibly the amp. Am I correct in thinking this? Or is it I just might not be getting the optimal sound quality with the high output into a low input.
Starting to feel dense here...
arcorob
Addicted Member
Let me make this simple...I hope
You have a LOMC cart at .3mv
You use a phone stage for LOMC with a 15x gain in voltage
Your signal is now 4.5mv which is decent for line level input
No stress on the phono stage or the amp
Now try the same with a MM cart that STARTS at 3.0mv
You use a phone stage for LOMC with a 15x gain in voltage
Your signal is now 45mv (versus 4.5)
You risk damage to the following:
The phono stage is probably not made to accept a signal above 1.0mv so you risk damage there feeding it 3.0mv
if the phono stage survives, you are pushing a huge gain at the amp - 10 times what it should be
You'll also be pushing extreme noise
Does this help ?
You have a LOMC cart at .3mv
You use a phone stage for LOMC with a 15x gain in voltage
Your signal is now 4.5mv which is decent for line level input
No stress on the phono stage or the amp
Now try the same with a MM cart that STARTS at 3.0mv
You use a phone stage for LOMC with a 15x gain in voltage
Your signal is now 45mv (versus 4.5)
You risk damage to the following:
The phono stage is probably not made to accept a signal above 1.0mv so you risk damage there feeding it 3.0mv
if the phono stage survives, you are pushing a huge gain at the amp - 10 times what it should be
You'll also be pushing extreme noise
Does this help ?
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
Rob, as usual well done.
Yes, you are OVER-LOADING the phono preamp by feeding 3mv into the MC stage.