Most MC like MM/MI cartridges

[lini]

ns: Actually I wouldn't make too much of a difference between the MI variants regarding the principle of operation, because in either case the movable "iron" causes a modulation of the field of a stationary magnet, although one could certainly claim that IM-type MIs are most closely related to MMs - most so, of course, those with the magnet fixed to the removable needle, like for example the classic ADCs, because the bodies of these could be just as well used with an MM type needle instead.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[lini]

ns: Sorry, I have zero personal experience with these needles (the only Stanton I have is the 500EIII my TD280II originally came with, and that didn't exactly make me a Stanton/Pickering fan, to put it politely... ).

But generally speaking one could basically regard MM bodies and IM-type MI bodies without fixed magnet as equally operable with an MM needle and an MI needle with magnet. Whereas quite obviously we'd have to expect problems in case of no magnet at all (i.e. body without magnet plus needle without magnet) - and there could also be problems in case of two magnets, as it would seem hard to predict, how these would interfere, though one could try and see. However, I'd be careful with such experiments in case of expensive original needles, 'cause it would also seem hard to predict, to which degree the two magnets might permanently alter each other's field and whether that might reduce performance in combination with the bodies the needles are originally intended for...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[ripblade]

rb: Actually with low output MMs and MIs I rather didn't have the ones in mind that have a comparatively low output within the high output group, but rather the very few ones with an output about as low as low output MCs.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Yes, I see that now, but the ones I'm referring to still have the greater frequency extension and flatter response similar to a moving coil as these were intended for Quad discs. Not ideally perhaps, but any measure to lower inductance bears sonic fruit, IMO.

Still, it would be nice to sample one of these ultra low output MM/MI carts. They require similar loads as MC, I presume?

 

[GrampaDave]

Don't magnetic fields obey the principle of Superposition? If so, then (a) the fixed magnet's field affects the coils only to whatever extent moving iron bends it, and (b) the moving magnet affects the coils as if the fixed magnet was not present.

 

[marcmorin]

Don't magnetic fields obey the principle of Superposition? If so, then (a) the fixed magnet's field affects the coils only to whatever extent moving iron bends it, and (b) the moving magnet affects the coils as if the fixed magnet was not present.

correct. (A) is a true moving iron.

 

[marcmorin]

Yes, I see that now, but the ones I'm referring to still have the greater frequency extension and flatter response similar to a moving coil as these were intended for Quad discs. Not ideally perhaps, but any measure to lower inductance bears sonic fruit, IMO.

Still, it would be nice to sample one of these ultra low output MM/MI carts. They require similar loads as MC, I presume?

The 1.5mv and .5mv Grado carts will play right into 47K loads. FR goes out to 60K on some, past 75K on The Statement.

 

[ripblade]

The 1.5mv and .5mv Grado carts will play right into 47K loads. FR goes out to 60K on some, past 75K on The Statement.

So where do you get the gain these low output carts need? Most MC stages I've come across don't offer 47k loading, nor do most MM stages provide 60dB gain. Or do you just keep the line pre volume at 11 with these cartridges?

 

[lini]

Dave: I'd think for one thing the effect of saturation could come into play - especially as superposition would basically just mean we'd have to do an addition of the field force vectors to get the resulting vector, so one could imagine several cases depending on the polarity of each magnet. I.e., even if the magnetic flux lines would happen to be parallel, the vectors could still in fact be antiparallel, so in the worst case the two magnets could cancel each other out, which would seem just as problematic as the case of "no magnet(s) at all" - whereas in the case of the two magnets adding up in field strength, that might be enough to saturate the coil cores...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[marcmorin]

So where do you get the gain these low output carts need? Most MC stages I've come across don't offer 47k loading, nor do most MM stages provide 60dB gain. Or do you just keep the line pre volume at 11 with these cartridges?

my phono pre has 37db gain, I can run the 1.5mv no problem. The volume knob doesn't add noise. To run the .5mv bodies, you can use a SUT, or hi gain phono section. 50db or so.

 

[mike_p]

Or you could get a head amp, like the Graham Slee Elevator EXP. They can be found occasionally second-hand on the UK auction site. (I picked one up for about $375 to use with a second hand Grado Statement 1 and a Stanton 980 LZS.)

 

[GoldSounds]

I agree with the sentiment about the Grados à la the 8mz. I'd also like to add though some of the higher-end MM Audio Technica's, such as my vintage AT-ML170/OCC. The mircoline stylus really helps with the fine detail extraction.

 

[ETI_5000]

The best thing about the low output MM’s was that they have user-replaceable styli. While there were a few MC’s with replaceable styli, including from AT, Satin and Sony, the ‘stylus’ actually contained most of the cartridge internals, including the coils, so was quite expensive, and there needed to be a reliable, low resistance way of plugging in the connections to the cartridge terminals.

With low output MM’s you could get most of the benefits of low output MC’s (very low inductance, not susceptible to load capacitance changes, wide frequency response) without the drawback of a fixed, non-user-replaceable stylus. Now, I've got two genuine Pickering styli for an XLZ-4500S (which work on my Stanton 881S, of course) - all I have to do now is find a body for a Pickering XLZ (or the Stanton LZS equivalents) at low cost!

 

[bjlefebvre]

I have a limited experience with MCs - Denon 103, Denon 110 and the Dynavector 10x2. From my comparing with MIs, I think the aforementioned Grado 8MZ stylus and the Empire 4000d/iii are the closest things to MC soundstaging I've heard. The latter especially is my go-to cart right now.

 

[Northwinds]

Soundsmith Carmen no hands down, it's Moving Iron

 

[bjlefebvre]

I'm really interested in that Soundsmith Carmen. But at $800 I won't be using one unless I find one lying on the ground somewhere.

 

[Northwinds]

I'm really interested in that Soundsmith Carmen. But at $800 I won't be using one unless I find one lying on the ground somewhere.

They are a little pricey but they compete with $2k carts. Lot of bang for the buck for sure. I am a fan of the Benz carts but this Carmen just makes me smile every time I hear it tracking a record

 

[steven94]

I recently picked up a Pickering XLZ 4500S. It sounds unbelievable I'm hearing subtle things on well known records that I've not heard before.I do not have a 881S but I do have a XVS 3000 and I think $150.00 is money well spent especially since you already have stylus to fit it

 

[tri_pod]

Grace F-9?

tri_pod

 

[lini]

Andre: Regarding sound quality? In that case I'd agree, while I wouldn't deem the usual Graces very MC-like from a technical point of view.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[ETI_5000]

Is $150 too much? I know where you can find one for $150 easy. Vickers.

I was aware of those cartridge bodies Vickers have, and it is tempting. I should really wait until next year, due to some other unforeseen things I've needed to spend the money on recently (e.g. faulty fridge replacement – expensive compared to that cartridge), as well as several other relatively large expenses I've just incurred last month (car major service, and two separate car bodywork repairs caused by 'park or drive by feel' merchants).

I recently picked up a Pickering XLZ 4500S. It sounds unbelievable I'm hearing subtle things on well known records that I've not heard before.I do not have a 881S but I do have a XVS 3000 and I think $150.00 is money well spent especially since you already have stylus to fit it

Yes, I look forward to hearing it - hopefully early next year, assuming nothing else breaks down or needs servicing, repairing or replacing in the meantime!