Moving coil cart current setup

[Krumm2005]

Howdy!
I’m brand new to the forum. I’ve been slowly building my hifi turntable setup which consists of a Technics sl1200, Denon 103r moving coil cart, an Emotiva usp-1, an my most recent purchase of an Emotiva XPA-2 gen 2.

Since moving toward a MC cart I’ve had issues with low volume. I figured the XPA would really crank up the sound, but it’s not quite there. I’m able to get my volume up past 75%, which feels risky since I’m overpowering my speakers.

My preamp is set for MC but only goes to a 250 ohms, I’m thinking my issue may be solved by stepping my impedance up to 1k.

My question to the community is should I look into a step up transformer to accomplish this, or upgrade my preamp? Has anyone had this issue and have some recommendations?

I appreciate the help and am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Kyle

 

[egellings]

Maybe using a step up transformer (10X would be fine) between the 103R and your moving magnet preamp input would be the way to go. You could add additional resistive loading on the cart side of the xfmr to meet what the cart needs.

 

[avionic]

Welcome to AK Krumm..

 

[Krumm2005]

well thank you!

 

[Krumm2005]

Maybe using a step up transformer (10X would be fine) between the 103R and your moving magnet preamp input would be the way to go. You could add additional resistive loading on the cart side of the xfmr to meet what the cart needs.

That is what I’m thinking, do you have any recommendations on good quality and well priced SUTs that would do the job?

 

[egellings]

I have had good luck with Jensen MC step-up transformers. See:
https://www.jensen-transformers.com/transformers/moving-coil/

 

[BassKulcha]

I bet @Redboy would have a SUT for you...

 

[cobbears]

Do you know what the gain of your MC stage is?
Would be useful to know,250ohms is perfectly usable but how much gain?

 

[Krumm2005]

Do you know what the gain of your MC stage is?
Would be useful to know,250ohms is perfectly usable but how much gain?

Would this be specs on the cart or preamp?

 

[sqlsavior]

A new (or used) Denon AU-300LC would be an inexpensive choice, as would other used Denon SUTs from further up the line. Rothwell Audio makes reasonably priced phono products, including SUTs. DIY projects are another path, but fine-points such as wire dressing and grounding schemes can thwart inexperienced builders. Step-up transformers do not lend themselves to inexpensive, million-unit manufacturing, so 'reasonable' is relative to one's perspective. The nice thing about a good, general-purpose 10:1 SUT is that you can use it with any MM preamp as you go along in your journey.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Since moving toward a MC cart I’ve had issues with low volume. I figured the XPA would really crank up the sound, but it’s not quite there. I’m able to get my volume up past 75%, which feels risky since I’m overpowering my speakers.

75% of what? If the music isn't loud, you're not overpowering your speakers - the position of the volume control is irrelevant.

My preamp is set for MC but only goes to a 250 ohms, I’m thinking my issue may be solved by stepping my impedance up to 1k.

No, the impedance has no impact on the volume unless it is way too low. The impedance of your cartridge is 14 ohms, so 250 ohms is plenty high enough. A higher impedance won't give you any more volume.
I couldn't find any specs for your preamp so I don't know how much more gain the mc setting has compared to the mm setting, but it is often 20dB or more. Using a SUT into the phono input set for mm may give you a bit more gain (depending on the SUT) but I'm not convinced that's the ideal solution in this instance.

 

[Krumm2005]

75% of what? If the music isn't loud, you're not overpowering your speakers - the position of the volume control is irrelevant.

No, the impedance has no impact on the volume unless it is way too low. The impedance of your cartridge is 14 ohms, so 250 ohms is plenty high enough. A higher impedance won't give you any more volume.
I couldn't find any specs for your preamp so I don't know how much more gain the mc setting has compared to the mm setting, but it is often 20dB or more. Using a SUT into the phono input set for mm may give you a bit more gain (depending on the SUT) but I'm not convinced that's the ideal solution in this instance.

I see, what are you thinking the optimal solution would be?

 

[Krumm2005]

I bet @Redboy would have a SUT for you...

@Redboy would you happen to have a solution?

 

[E-Stat]

Surprisingly, the manual fails to mention its gain. A more current and expensive model the XPA-1, however, states MC gain from input to balanced output at 60 db. In my day, that was representative of a MM, not MC stage. By comparison, my preamp has 72 db total gain and I use a mid output (1 mV) Dynavector.

The Denon definitely falls into the low output side with 0.25 mV of output. I'm thinking you'll need a step up tranny for that match.

 

[sqlsavior]

What day was that? MM preamps are usually about 40 dB gain.

 

[Krumm2005]

Thanks for your help so far. I’m finding some folds on other threads discuss that since the 103r is rated at .25Mv it typically needs 1:60, but I’m wondering if that’s needed in this scenario since my preamplifier is raising the load as well?

I obviously have quite a lot to learn here, I really appreciate you all taking time out of your day/night to help with this.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Thanks for your help so far. I’m finding some folds on other threads discuss that since the 103r is rated at .25Mv it typically needs 1:60, but I’m wondering if that’s needed in this scenario since my preamplifier is raising the load as well?

A quarter of a megavolt! No, the Denon DL-103R is specified at 0.25mV, which is a bit lower than a lot of modern LOMC cartridges but not by much. No, it doesn't need a 1:60 transformer. Between 1:10 and 1:20 would be sufficient.
No, your preamplifier isn't "raising the load". Your phonostage's input impedance is 250 ohms for the mc setting and that's fine. You won't get more volume with a higher input impedance.

I obviously have quite a lot to learn here, I really appreciate you all taking time out of your day/night to help with this.

Maybe this will help:
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/step-up_transformers_for_denon.html
Or for more general SUT stuff:
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html

How does the turntable compare to other sources? Is the volume difference huge? Were you using an MM cartridge previously? What was it and was it loud enough?

 

[rothwellaudio]

Surprisingly, the manual fails to mention its gain. A more current and expensive model the XPA-1, however, states MC gain from input to balanced output at 60 db. In my day, that was representative of a MM, not MC stage. By comparison, my preamp has 72 db total gain and I use a mid output (1 mV) Dynavector.

What day was that? MM preamps are usually about 40 dB gain.

40dB is typical for an MM phonostage. 60dB is typical for an MC phonostage. However, it's not unusual for the phonostage to be followed by a line stage preamp with a gain of 20dB, so the total gain from the phono input to the preamp output to be 60dB for MM and 80dB for MC.
It would help if Emotiva provided specs.

 

[Krumm2005]

A quarter of a megavolt! No, the Denon DL-103R is specified at 0.25mV, which is a bit lower than a lot of modern LOMC cartridges but not by much. No, it doesn't need a 1:60 transformer. Between 1:10 and 1:20 would be sufficient.
No, your preamplifier isn't "raising the load". Your phonostage's input impedance is 250 ohms for the mc setting and that's fine. You won't get more volume with a higher input impedance.

Maybe this will help:
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/step-up_transformers_for_denon.html
Or for more general SUT stuff:
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html

How does the turntable compare to other sources? Is the volume difference huge? Were you using an MM cartridge previously? What was it and was it loud enough?

So I’ve been building my layout piece by piece. I did research for upgrading our needle and head shell, and read of the MC carts sound quality. I saw a ton of people discuss the value of the 103 and 103r. We got the 103r with a Sumiko head shell.

Upon installing the needle I knew I would need to upgrade my preamp with something for my MC cart. My previous amplifier was a hand me down Harmon Kardon 3490, which didn’t have that feature. I opted in for the Emotiva USP-1.

Once I set it up, I noticed I can turn the volume all the way up (to 11). I figured my amplifier was the weak point, so I’ve been saving for a much stronger amplifier (this was 120w per Chanel), and HK went kaput recently. I purchased the Emotiva XMC-2 which is supposed to be overpowering my current speakers (I’ve got my eye on some Magnepans in the future which will line up with the power)

I have Infinity 2000.6 rated at 15-200w @8ohms, this amp is pushing 300w into each Chanel. While the new amp has really brought vibrance and stellar clarity to my music, I can STILL get the volume near max and not hear distortion, which leads me to believe something is still off.

There is it... my hifi journey...

 

[E-Stat]

What day was that?

The 70s when I purchased a Harman Kardon Citation 11. Followed by PAT-5 and Audio Research SP-6C all having 57-60 db MM gain to output.

MM preamps are usually about 40 dB gain.

40dB is typical for an MM phonostage. 60dB is typical for an MC phonostage.

Guys, note that I used the way Emotiva expressed the gain as "to balanced output". Yes, I understand the traditional way is to state the gain of the phono stage alone to tape output bypassing the line stage which for this model is 12 db.

"Phono (Moving Coil; phono in to balanced out):
Gain (1 kHz, Volume at 0): approximately 60 dB."

The only "balanced out" (other than subs) I find is "main output" to power amp. Additionally, main output voltage is stated at 1V. Perhaps that is a typo, but the same phrasing is used in the manual. Or perhaps, that is the reason why this post exists.