Moving up the stream

[newworld]

This is a continuation of my Speaker Shootout thread which has naturally progressed to amplifiers.

Read http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=570067 to follow my impressions on a vast range of speakers.

When my purchase was done, it became apparent that my amplifier was not a good fit for my brand new speakers, Proac D2. Off it went to the local dealer, and left me with an option to explore the amplification side of things.

I was really keen on getting a tube amplifier for the Proac's, as it's long been a dream of mine and considering the fact that the speakers were voiced with Audio Research. Proac now uses Sugden for voicing and Naim for demonstration at shows. All of the brands mentioned far exceeds how much I would like to spend.

Those of you who have been following my Speaker Shootout thread know that I'm kind of indifferent when it comes to amplification. It either works or it doesn't. Either it works well with your speakers or it doesn't.

Looking around locally, I realized that the number of quality electronics suffers compare to the speakers. There's always the option of mail-order, but my rule has always been buy only what you can hear. Those of you who do not have the good fortune of having dealers nearby, let alone a good one, well, that's what this forum is for. This is probably going to be a short one...

Edit: Turning out not to be a short one. Currently going through Rega Brio-R, Naim Nait 5i-2, Nait XS-2, Quicksilver Mid Mono, Musical Fidelity M3i, Simaudio Neo 250i, Arcam A19...

 

[newworld]

Rega Brio R - I got to hear this little amplifier the most since it was so widely available. Dynaudio X14, Proac Studio 140 mk2, Kef LS50 were heard at the end of this. It focuses on the midrange and treble. It doesn't bother with the bass giving an impression of being 'tight'. Midrange is not open, but slightly colored to give 'warmth'. It's not warmth. It's just not very accurate, detailed, or whatever you might call it. Treble on the other hand is very nicely done. It has sort of a physicality to it. Proac Studio 140 mk2 was by far the best match for this amplifier. Maybe it had something to do with their high efficiency but the Brio-R took them to town, adding body to treble, warmth to mid, and going snappy on bass. I seriously considered this combination and came up second in my speaker search. The allure of convenience was hard to resist.

I sort of have a problem with Rega products. The brand recognition is so strong that almost anything they make are taken seriously, but it's a bit gimmicky for me. Every Apollo cdplayer I tried at dealers and at home stopped operating at some point, the Brio 3 was seriously lacking in every aspect sonically, I blew the woofers on R3's while listening at a dealer. I've only heard about the transformer hum in the Brio-R, although I haven't noticed anything like that.

 

[davidro]

You sure tubes is your thing?

 

[Art K.]

Rega Brio R - I got to hear this little amplifier the most since it was so widely available. Dynaudio X14, Proac Studio 140 mk2, Kef LS50 were heard at the end of this. It focuses on the midrange and treble. It doesn't bother with the bass giving an impression of being 'tight'. Midrange is not open, but slightly colored to give 'warmth'. It's not warmth. It's just not very accurate, detailed, or whatever you might call it. Treble on the other hand is very nicely done. It has sort of a physicality to it. Proac Studio 140 mk2 was by far the best match for this amplifier. Maybe it had something to do with their high efficiency but the Brio-R to them to town, adding body to treble, warmth to mid, and going snappy on bass. I seriously considered this combination and came up second in my speaker search. The allure of convenience was hard to resist.

I sort of have a problem with Rega products. The brand recognition is so strong that almost anything they make are taken seriously, but it's a bit gimmicky for me. Every Apollo cdplayer I tried at dealers and at home stopped operating at some point, the Brio 3 was seriously lacking in every aspect sonically, I blew the woofers on R3's while listening at a dealer. I've only heard about the transformer hum in the Brio-R, although I haven't noticed anything like that.

Very interesting post. My experiences with Rega products is very, very similar to yours. Especially the CD players. I love the little Brio-R and I mostly agree with your description of the sound. With the right speakers, like the ProAc Studio 140's or my Spendors the sound is very live to my ears. The coloration in the sound of the Brio-R becomes an asset and it acquits itself very nicely. In an otherwise warm sounding setup it becomes too much of a good thing. The drivers in Rega speakers are not all robust and it's quite easy to blow the RR125, especially.

 

[newworld]

You sure tubes is your thing?

I'm starting to wonder about that. The demand of the materials I play are at odds with the budget tube amplifiers I was looking at...online.

 

[richamor]

Amplifier - Simaudio Neo . Best Simaudio money can buy for the D2's.

I think I would start, and likely end, my search here.

Moon Neo 220i integrated amplifier ($1850)
Moon Neo 250i integrated amplifier ($2400)
Moon Neo 340i integrated amplifier ($4600, phono, USB DAC, and balanced output options available)

 

[Fusion]

Well, I heartily recommend the Unison Research S6. Paired with my ProAc speakers the sound is amazing...especially when I turn up the volume. If you want weight and scale this amp can do it. Lots of warmth, clarity, and tonal accuracy...I am tempted to just stick with the S6 and not go back to SS as I had planned.

That said, it does round off the sound a little bit though...there is a little less attack and punch than I can get with solid state. I want that for the music that I listen to. But the sound is so good in all other ways that I may be prepared to give that up. The best case would be to find a SS amp that can give me both.

I am also a little concerned with tube reliability and leaving the amp on. It's nice with SS to just turn on the amp and not really have to worry about it. Although, things can go wrong with any amp really. And there is nothing to suggest the Unison is lacking in this regard...in fact, I'd trust Unison more than most. Good Italian build quality. I guess it's perhaps just a bit of concern leaving a hot tube amp on unsupervised. I'd leave a SS amp on all weekend...but a tube amp is turned off when I'm done listening.

 

[newworld]

I think I would start, and likely end, my search here.

Moon Neo 220i integrated amplifier ($1850)
Moon Neo 250i integrated amplifier ($2400)
Moon Neo 340i integrated amplifier ($4600, phono, USB DAC, and balanced output options available)

Not quite what I said, actually. In that post I noted that I wasn't crazy about the Neo when matched with the Studio 140 mk2. However, the D2's were amazing with the Simaudio pre-power, a price point of which I have no means or the intention of reaching.

 

[newworld]

Well, I heartily recommend the Unison Research S6. Paired with my ProAc speakers the sound is amazing...especially when I turn up the volume. If you want weight and scale this amp can do it. Lots of warmth, clarity, and tonal accuracy...I am tempted to just stick with the S6 and not go back to SS as I had planned.

That said, it does round off the sound a little bit though...there is a little less attack and punch than I can get with solid state. I want that for the music that I listen to. But the sound is so good in all other ways that I may be prepared to give that up. The best case would be to find a SS amp that can give me both.

I am also a little concerned with tube reliability and leaving the amp on. It's nice with SS to just turn on the amp and not really have to worry about it. Although, things can go wrong with any amp really. And there is nothing to suggest the Unison is lacking in this regard...in fact, I'd trust Unison more than most. Good Italian build quality. I guess it's perhaps just a bit of concern leaving a hot tube amp on unsupervised. I'd leave a SS amp on all weekend...but a tube amp is turned off when I'm done listening.

I'm trying to locate a demo for Unison Research. It sure looks great! Thanks.

I really think that trying to find a SS that sounds like a tube is a bit futile. Those kind of amps tend to be inaccurate and while pleasing at first, it will bother you more than the clinical and detailed ones.

 

[davidro]

I really think that trying to find a SS that sounds like a tube is a bit futile. Those kind of amps tend to be inaccurate and while pleasing at first, it will bother you more than the clinical and detailed ones.

Not necessarily. My Redgum amp sounds very tubey and is often called '300B on roid'. When compared to those 'clinical and detailed' ones I am just so glad I was able to hold a grab of this amp. Some might possibly find the Redgum a little too tubey, but it doesn't sound like those ubiquitous vintage SS amps that are known to have tubey sound with lots of sonic compromises.

For those people who would prefer less of tube goodness in an SS amp, Musical Fidelity amps can offer a nice compromise.

But I like my double shot espresso and Berstein's second Mahler cycle. I have no problem with what might seem to some 'over the top' approach of my Redgum Ok it does't sound as transparent as a good SET but it has more meat and easy handles...

 

[Art K.]

Would like to hear a Redgum amp. Sounds like it would be a perfect match for my Spendors.

 

[SPEC2man]

Glad to see you chose the D2 ... I am very happy with mine. I have been running D2's for about 2-3 years now. I upgraded from the cherry finish to the ebony about a year or so ago.

I have powered the Proacs with several amplifiers; all with good luck :

Mark Levinson No. 23.5

Threshold SA/6e monos

Audio Research VT-60

Quicksilver Mini mites

Quicksilver V4 monos

McIntosh MC-75 monos

Jolida JD-202BRC

Not much experience with integrated amplifiers with the exception of the Jolida. I thought the Levinson was the best I have heard. I am running Quicksilver V4's now and it's a real good match up. The mini-mites were just a bit under powered. I have heard the Unison Research but not with D2's and it was a great amplifier in it's own right. The Jolida was quite good as well, by far the best bang for the buck. It took 150 hours to break it in but it softened up quite nice. One thing I liked about the Jolida, was the option of sending it to the factory and for $150 they can turn one of the inputs into an output. I thought it would be a nice touch if I decided I needed more power or wanted to add a sub. I ran it with a slightly modded Jolida JD-9 phono pre and an Emotiva DAC which covered all the inputs I needed. The whole setup cost me $1400 and was a great combo with the Proacs. I paid almost twice that for the speakers and picked them up used off Audiogon. The Jolida I bought new and the DAC and phono pre I picked up used.

Might not be a bad way to go, if you are on a budget. I think Jolida makes an integrated with a little more muscle (JD502BRC) it's pushing 60 WPC running KT-88's and it has the outputs built in. I also looked at the JD1000RC but couldn't get it to fit in a rack. I thought the 1000 was a bit pricey.

Good luck to you, I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Ths364]

Have you/would you consider a McIntosh 2100 or 2105? They use autoformers at the output so a bit of tube-ish behavior is in there.

 

[BeerCan]

I'm trying to locate a demo for Unison Research. It sure looks great! Thanks.

I really think that trying to find a SS that sounds like a tube is a bit futile. Those kind of amps tend to be inaccurate and while pleasing at first, it will bother you more than the clinical and detailed ones.

I really like my Unison integrated so I hope you find a dealer, because mine sounds sweet with the LS50's

I have a new amp inbound next week that I will be using with the LS50's. I will post a report.

newworld where do you live BTW, I missed it if you posted earlier.

 

[newworld]

Not necessarily. My Redgum amp sounds very tubey and is often called '300B on roid'. When compared to those 'clinical and detailed' ones I am just so glad I was able to hold a grab of this amp. Some might possibly find the Redgum a little too tubey, but it doesn't sound like those ubiquitous vintage SS amps that are known to have tubey sound with lots of sonic compromises.

For those people who would prefer less of tube goodness in an SS amp, Musical Fidelity amps can offer a nice compromise.

But I like my double shot espresso and Berstein's second Mahler cycle. I have no problem with what might seem to some 'over the top' approach of my Redgum Ok it does't sound as transparent as a good SET but it has more meat and easy handles...

Too bad it's not distributed here in the States. 300B on roid sounds like exactly what I need!

 

[newworld]

*post answered via PM

 

[newworld]

I really like my Unison integrated so I hope you find a dealer, because mine sounds sweet with the LS50's

I have a new amp inbound next week that I will be using with the LS50's. I will post a report.

newworld where do you live BTW, I missed it if you posted earlier.

There's no dealer nearby for Unison Research...I can't wait to hear your report on the new amp.

 

[newworld]

To my heart's content...

There have been some amplifiers that I had never got around to listen to. The award-winning, universally praised types that everyone gets to listen to, like the Rega Brio-R, but I never could. Now I have.

Naim Nait 5i-2 - There were many times, since my ownership of the Harbeth's, that I just wanted to buy the previous iterations of this amplifier blind. Years and years of accolades, fanatical owners, musical, involving, addictive, power supply over power rating, must be on at all times, best with Naca5, PRAT..........you can take all of that and shove it. This has to be one of the most grossly hyped and shrewdly marketed amplifier in existence.

Simply put, it's INACCURATE. Trying and failing is one thing, but this amplifier blatantly looks the other way and becomes obnoxious like an american in a foreign country. Every instrument sounds like an electronic guitar. Dense, dark, and monotonous like drawing an unlit cave in ink. In fact, every recording sounds the same. Thump-thump, wahhh , thump-thump, phssst, thump....

Here are the new definitions for you:
Pace - every articulation is a jab in the face
Rhythm - every decay is abruptly cut
and
Timing - it's a good time to turn that amplifier off before I lose it

This experience has really traumatized me. Salva me...

 

[sheanachai]

Lol! Nice post. And have to say I share your feelings about Naim Nait 5i. Didn't mean a thing for me when I heard it with a System Audio speaker pair initially and then with an Audio Physic pair (which kind of restored my faith in good German speakers saving over-hyped British amps). Then of course, thousands of Naim owners which go up the upgrade ladder of Naim through the various xxxCaps and eventually separates can't be all in the wrong. Thus I stand to be corrected and wait the epiphany of the musical magic coming from a Naim setup in my future.

Naim aside, are you still interested in tube amps? Cause you got me side tracked with the Rega review (one might say you are not very fond of British amps... ).

But.... if you still are, I have a Frenchie in mind, which might be an interesting option to explore...

 

[newworld]

Lol! Nice post. And have to say I share your feelings about Naim Nait 5i. Didn't mean a thing for me when I heard it with a System Audio speaker pair initially and then with an Audio Physic pair (which kind of restored my faith in good German speakers saving over-hyped British amps). Then of course, thousands of Naim owners which go up the upgrade ladder of Naim through the various xxxCaps and eventually separates can't be all in the wrong. Thus I stand to be corrected and wait the epiphany of the musical magic coming from a Naim setup in my future.

Naim aside, are you still interested in tube amps? Cause you got me side tracked with the Rega review (one might say you are not very fond of British amps... ).

But.... if you still are, I have a Frenchie in mind, which might be an interesting option to explore...

Please, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against British amps, or any other. I'm just not sure, for my money, if this particular amp is of best value. Even if it were close to the price I would expect it to be, I wouldn't buy it, because it's so far removed from the music I know.

My previous integrated was French, and it was interesting in its own way. I'm also auditioning right now with an open mind. Tube or solid state. It doesn't matter. I just want a natural, open, and transparent sounding amplifier. I had no idea this would be such a hard task. :scratch2: