shacky
Addicted Member
Ya think 105WPC will do it?No wolf-hairs or fangs in evidence (yet)
awprint:
:yes: :thmbsp:
My $10 AR-2a's
- Thread starter chicks
- Start date
:yes: :thmbsp:
chicks
Lunatic Member
Well, after searching for fabric even remotely similar to the original, discovered that it's either no longer made or I can't afford it. Found this Linen Burlap at Joann Fabrics, which, after a 50% coupon, rang up to $5.50 + tax; enough for both speakers. It's much more "open" than the Irish linens I found, and looks a lot like the fabric on my NLA's. Also picked up some Aleene's glue, and some 1/8" masonite over at the HD, enough for four frames.
AR didn't staple the grille cloth to the back of the frame (not likely to hold in 1/8" masonite), they spread what appears to be black latex paint over the entire masonite front, then stuck the fabric to that. I'm guessing the fabric was pre-stretched, and the masonite laid on top.
Tried to duplicate the process, but used Aleene's only around the perimeter, and have no way to pre-stretch without building an external frame to staple to, too much work. After the glue dried, the fabric is stuck pretty well, but the creases were very visible, and the fabric was loose. So, borrowed the wife's houseplant mister, sprayed the fabric all over, and set 'er in the sun to dry.
This did the job - fabric's now tight as a drum. Unfortunately, the Aleene's glue is water based, and now shows right through.
Will need to find another low-cost glue that isn't water based. Suggestions?
AR didn't staple the grille cloth to the back of the frame (not likely to hold in 1/8" masonite), they spread what appears to be black latex paint over the entire masonite front, then stuck the fabric to that. I'm guessing the fabric was pre-stretched, and the masonite laid on top.
Tried to duplicate the process, but used Aleene's only around the perimeter, and have no way to pre-stretch without building an external frame to staple to, too much work. After the glue dried, the fabric is stuck pretty well, but the creases were very visible, and the fabric was loose. So, borrowed the wife's houseplant mister, sprayed the fabric all over, and set 'er in the sun to dry.
This did the job - fabric's now tight as a drum. Unfortunately, the Aleene's glue is water based, and now shows right through.
Will need to find another low-cost glue that isn't water based. Suggestions?
r_brumett61
Well-Known Member
I think the AR3a restoration guide at www.classicspeakerpages.net describes how to put new cloth on that masonite like material(I believe it mentions a pointed chisel staple) either in the guide or one of the threads. Good luck!
chicks
Lunatic Member
AR had several different ways to mount the fabric - on 1/4" masonite, stapling from the back is no problem. On 1/8" masonite, which they used in this application, they glued the fabric on the front, and the raw edges are hidden by the grooves in the 3/4" solid walnut trim pieces. There is no wrapping around the masonite or stapling involved.
I intend to stick with the original method for these speakers, will probably just need to move to 3M Super 77 or similar adhesive. AR did use staples here, but to hold the frame to the baffle, through the front of the fabric - 15 staples per speaker, and easy to overlook when removing the fronts.
Yep, they used very long hoop staples that held the grill board to the baffle board. They blend in very well with the old "houndstooth" style cloth and are hard to see.
If you use linen or other non-polyester fabric here's just one way of re-covering them that I've had success with: after cutting the cloth to the right size for the grill lay it down on a towel on the work bench, iron and starch the hell out of it, spray 3M Super 77 on the grill board and when it tacks up lay the grill board onto the starched and ironed cloth. Then run a bead of hot glue down the back edge of the grill board (which is now facing up) and with a flat piece of wood such as a ruler fold the edge of the cloth around the back and hold it while the glue cools / dries. Repeat this for the other 3 sides, trim the excesss and then hit the front with a very light spritz of water from a spray bottle. When it dries it will shrink up and it should be tight and look even. There are many ways to do it, that's just the way I've found easiest and with best results - no fabric tugging or uneven edges. Authentic looking linen can be found at Michael's craft shop in the needlepoint section or you can check out this place http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/grille_cloth.asp but the way that you have them finished looks very good!
If you use linen or other non-polyester fabric here's just one way of re-covering them that I've had success with: after cutting the cloth to the right size for the grill lay it down on a towel on the work bench, iron and starch the hell out of it, spray 3M Super 77 on the grill board and when it tacks up lay the grill board onto the starched and ironed cloth. Then run a bead of hot glue down the back edge of the grill board (which is now facing up) and with a flat piece of wood such as a ruler fold the edge of the cloth around the back and hold it while the glue cools / dries. Repeat this for the other 3 sides, trim the excesss and then hit the front with a very light spritz of water from a spray bottle. When it dries it will shrink up and it should be tight and look even. There are many ways to do it, that's just the way I've found easiest and with best results - no fabric tugging or uneven edges. Authentic looking linen can be found at Michael's craft shop in the needlepoint section or you can check out this place http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/grille_cloth.asp but the way that you have them finished looks very good!
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chicks
Lunatic Member
OK, I used Aleene's Tacky Spray this time, works much better, no bleed-through when spritzed with water to shrink the fabric. The Linen Burlap rug hooking fabric used is much closer to the original fabric than the needlepoint linens (I prefer it to the newer off-white fabric AR used), and appears to be much more acoustically transparent, as well (the threads on the 18ct needlepoint linen is very thick, leaving very small holes).
Again, there's no folding or stapling or gluing the fabric to the back in this application. The raw edges simply stick over the edge of the masonite, and are hidden behind the 3/4" walnut trim pieces. A very nice design, AR! Not sure if I'll re-staple through the front, doubt that this fabric will hide them as well. I'm thinkin' Velcro or magnets...
One down, one to go. Need to pick up another package of the Linen Burlap with the 40% coupon in tomorrow's paper, since I screwed up the first one.
Again, there's no folding or stapling or gluing the fabric to the back in this application. The raw edges simply stick over the edge of the masonite, and are hidden behind the 3/4" walnut trim pieces. A very nice design, AR! Not sure if I'll re-staple through the front, doubt that this fabric will hide them as well. I'm thinkin' Velcro or magnets...
One down, one to go. Need to pick up another package of the Linen Burlap with the 40% coupon in tomorrow's paper, since I screwed up the first one.
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chicks
Lunatic Member
Fixed the broken aluminum tweeter wire using a jewelry "spacer bead", which is a short length of very thin tubing, made from what appears to be brass (picked up a box of them at Michael's for about $1). Simply twisted the broken wires together, slid the tubing over the break, and crimped the ends and middle with needle nose pliers. Works a treat. Don't know whether I'll have bi-metal corrosion issues a few years down the road, but not that concerned.
Put together the second grille frame today (turned out pretty well), and I'm callin' these done! No noticeable degradation of the highs with the grilles mounted.
Will take final pics when I have better light next week.
Edit - not quite done, forgot about the badges. They're still pretty corroded, and Tarn-X isn't doing the job, so will need to try something more powerful. More googling required...
Put together the second grille frame today (turned out pretty well), and I'm callin' these done! No noticeable degradation of the highs with the grilles mounted.
Will take final pics when I have better light next week.
Edit - not quite done, forgot about the badges. They're still pretty corroded, and Tarn-X isn't doing the job, so will need to try something more powerful. More googling required...
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chicks
Lunatic Member
A/B'd with the Advents last night. So far, no contest, the Advents win hands down. Much more open, much better highs, more bass, more efficient.
It's probably an unfair comparison, since the Advents are a perfect match with my little McIntosh MAC-1700 receiver. The AR's seem to want a lot more power. The test setup involved setting the MAC in mono mode, and simply using the balance control to switch between the Advent on the right channel, and the AR on the left. Since the Advent is apparently much more efficient, it sounded better on all source material.
One advantage the AR has is an apparently smoother bass performance - the Advents sound a bit "boomy" on some material, like it's an R&R speaker, while the AR had no apparent boominess. Could have been due to placement.
The AR was especially lacking when I played material with cymbals and snare drums. The sizzle just wasn't there. Also noticed that placement seems much more critical on the AR. Just slightly off center, the highs are even more attenuated, while the Advents sizzle from just about anywhere in the room. I kept the mid and high pots on the AR fully on, and the Advent switch at "normal".
So, more tweaking to do, will try pulling off the grille, and maybe even recapping, or, God forbid, will even consider the econo-wave route, if it doesn't cost a fortune (anything over $50 is a fortune to me)...
For now, should I happen on another pair of Advents for $30 or so, I wouldn't hesitate to buy them. Another pair of $10 AR2a's? Maybe not.
It's probably an unfair comparison, since the Advents are a perfect match with my little McIntosh MAC-1700 receiver. The AR's seem to want a lot more power. The test setup involved setting the MAC in mono mode, and simply using the balance control to switch between the Advent on the right channel, and the AR on the left. Since the Advent is apparently much more efficient, it sounded better on all source material.
One advantage the AR has is an apparently smoother bass performance - the Advents sound a bit "boomy" on some material, like it's an R&R speaker, while the AR had no apparent boominess. Could have been due to placement.
The AR was especially lacking when I played material with cymbals and snare drums. The sizzle just wasn't there. Also noticed that placement seems much more critical on the AR. Just slightly off center, the highs are even more attenuated, while the Advents sizzle from just about anywhere in the room. I kept the mid and high pots on the AR fully on, and the Advent switch at "normal".
So, more tweaking to do, will try pulling off the grille, and maybe even recapping, or, God forbid, will even consider the econo-wave route, if it doesn't cost a fortune (anything over $50 is a fortune to me)...
For now, should I happen on another pair of Advents for $30 or so, I wouldn't hesitate to buy them. Another pair of $10 AR2a's? Maybe not.
Do your Advents have the factory foam damping inside?
If so, they appear to have been intentionally underdamped; replace with fiberglass to tame the boom a bit.
Vintage ARs were voiced to mimick acoustic concert hall performance, and the highs are significantly rolled down. I suspect that is what you are hearing.
Don't know why some say they're good for jazz as well as classical; the measurements certainly suggest there's not much "sizzle...."
If so, they appear to have been intentionally underdamped; replace with fiberglass to tame the boom a bit.
Vintage ARs were voiced to mimick acoustic concert hall performance, and the highs are significantly rolled down. I suspect that is what you are hearing.
Don't know why some say they're good for jazz as well as classical; the measurements certainly suggest there's not much "sizzle...."
chicks
Lunatic Member
Yep.
How much fiberglass?
Vintage ARs were voiced to mimick acoustic concert hall performance, and the highs are significantly rolled down. I suspect that is what you are hearing.
Don't know why some say they're good for jazz as well as classical; the measurements certainly suggest there's not much "sizzle...."
I'll try replacing the caps on 'em, who knows? Also read somewhere that these need to be placed horizontally, at ear level, or the highs will be very beamy. All the literature shows them mounted horizontally, so will give that a shot. Of course, the "bottom" when placed vertically is far and away the most scratched up on this pair...
joelongwood
No more room at the inn
Yes, the dual midrange drivers are designed to be placed horizontally. The original AR-2, which had a 10" woofer and dual mid/tweeters (no separate dome tweeter) came standard with an unfinished, plywood bottom........the longer dimension was the bottom. You paid $6 extra to have the speaker finished on all four sides.
I line the four sides with R-13 and stick a cut strip down the middle.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2462270#post2462270
For more damping, use R-15 (denser) or stuff it more.... :yes:
chicks
Lunatic Member
OK, A/B'd again, this time with the AR horizontal at ear level, and the Advent pulled out from the wall to reduce boominess and its switch set to "decrease" as recommended elsewhere on this august forum.
This greatly improves the AR's sound. The mids and highs are much more prominent, to the point where I may turn down the controls a tad. Pops and clicks on the LPs I've played so far are very much in evidence. The bass is a bit lacking in comparison to the Advents, but still seems more natural. I may need to re-dope the surrounds, but when I pushed in on the woofs, they returned slowly, indicating that they should be OK. I believe AR recommended putting one of the speakers in a corner to enhance bass, so will try that next.
Maybe I've just gotten used to an "incorrect" sound from the Advents, with the switch in "normal", sitting on the floor, one in a corner, and assumed it was "correct".
Hoo boy - lots more listening needed to decide which actually sounds better. Not that I mind listening...
This greatly improves the AR's sound. The mids and highs are much more prominent, to the point where I may turn down the controls a tad. Pops and clicks on the LPs I've played so far are very much in evidence. The bass is a bit lacking in comparison to the Advents, but still seems more natural. I may need to re-dope the surrounds, but when I pushed in on the woofs, they returned slowly, indicating that they should be OK. I believe AR recommended putting one of the speakers in a corner to enhance bass, so will try that next.
Maybe I've just gotten used to an "incorrect" sound from the Advents, with the switch in "normal", sitting on the floor, one in a corner, and assumed it was "correct".
Hoo boy - lots more listening needed to decide which actually sounds better. Not that I mind listening...
chicks
Lunatic Member
Hmmmm... :scratch2:
I really have nowhere to mount these horizontally at ear level so that they'll sound right. They really need to sit on the floor vertically...
That little link on the back between the woofs and mids/tweets makes it real easy to experiment... I've always liked the sound of my Minimus 7's, which I used for years with a Phase Tech PC-50 unpowered sub. The PC-50 is now idled, in need of an unobtainable re-foam.
So, time to play. Dug out a pair of 33uF polarized electrolytics, put them back-to-back in series for a non-polarized ~16uF high-pass filter. Disco'd the jumper on the AR's, so that just the woof is powered, and added the Minimus 7's through the cap. Probably crossing too low, I know, but...
Pretty damn decent sound. After taking the pic, I corner-mounted the set on the floor (perfect height to help hold up the cats' window seat
), which definitely helps with bass reinforcement 
without the boominess of the Advents. The combo adds the smooth bass response of the AR to the smooth rest-of-the-spectrum of the Mini-7's. Still not as much sizzle as the Advents, but I'm beginning to wonder whether they may be a bit exaggerated...
Gonna set up the other and listen for a while. Shoulda snagged that pair of 7W's on CL a few weeks back :sigh:
I really have nowhere to mount these horizontally at ear level so that they'll sound right. They really need to sit on the floor vertically...
That little link on the back between the woofs and mids/tweets makes it real easy to experiment... I've always liked the sound of my Minimus 7's, which I used for years with a Phase Tech PC-50 unpowered sub. The PC-50 is now idled, in need of an unobtainable re-foam.
So, time to play. Dug out a pair of 33uF polarized electrolytics, put them back-to-back in series for a non-polarized ~16uF high-pass filter. Disco'd the jumper on the AR's, so that just the woof is powered, and added the Minimus 7's through the cap. Probably crossing too low, I know, but...
Pretty damn decent sound. After taking the pic, I corner-mounted the set on the floor (perfect height to help hold up the cats' window seat
), which definitely helps with bass reinforcement without the boominess of the Advents. The combo adds the smooth bass response of the AR to the smooth rest-of-the-spectrum of the Mini-7's. Still not as much sizzle as the Advents, but I'm beginning to wonder whether they may be a bit exaggerated...Gonna set up the other and listen for a while. Shoulda snagged that pair of 7W's on CL a few weeks back :sigh:
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chicks
Lunatic Member
Thanks, it's all scrounged from CL and GW.
It's free software, http://www.freenas.org that I have installed on a tiny, low power fanless thin client in the garage (the silver box in the middle). A true NAS, it supports ftp, nfs, cifs, uPnP, etc and disks can be mounted in Raid arrays (I just use a single 160GB laptop drive).
Mazeppa
Active Member
Ya think 105WPC will do it?
The Onkyo amp you have pictured looks very familiar. I can't remember the model # of the one I had, but it was driving a pair of AR2a that were my first rehab project until I noticed that it (the Onkyo amp) was rated for 8ohm nominal loads only. Changing to an amp rated for the 4ohm nominal load (as the AR2a are) made a significant improvement in how the AR2a's sounded.
If your Onkyo is not rated for 4ohm nominal loads and if your Advents are rated as 8ohm nominal, the AR2a's are in the fight with one hand tied.
Great deal for $10. It's quite satisfying to bring this ol' stuff back to life and use, isn't it?