Mystique of some Japanese brand names

[62vauxhall]

Of strong interest to me has been stereo equipment and music since I was a teenager in the 1960's. So much so that I got into the business in my early 20's and remained there in one aspect or another for over 30 years.

I have been puzzled somewhat over the past few of those years when interest in what's now considered vintage two channel has increased. There seems to be great reverence for certain brands that I find hard to fathom. Why the praise heeped upon Pioneer, Sansui and Marantz to name a few? They were built to the same price points, used the same level of technology and parts, so other than big advertising budgets and dealer networks, why would one conside them any better than average?

Granted, there was a watts war and bragging rights went with the latest biggest, baddest receiver but not all manufactures participated in mainstream marketing to that point.

The fact was there was consumer audio that was technically just as good from companies that actually made semi conductors and consequently, their components were better value. Seems to me that those seeds of big bucks guided consumerism planted decades ago still bear fruit today. Scuttlebutt was that Julian Hirsh never reviewed anything unless it was advertised (or that manufacturer advertised) in Stereo Review.

 

[OMGCat!]

I think it was just what a lot of people wanted when they were kids and now they've got the coin and the space to enjoy it. Same with cars and other collectables.
I grew up in the mid 80's and love anodized black boxes with an LED or two glinting out of them but I can totally see the allure to recreating (or creating for the first time) the biggest, most buttony hi-fi system you can. The biggest names in the game back then were the ones you see going for the big dollars today.

 

[restorer-john]

I would consider all the Japanese brands when looking at quality vintage gear. No brands are off my list as they all produced great stuff.

Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz get the attention, but that leaves plenty of unappreciated truly excellent brands:

Akai,
Accuphase
Sony,
Technics,
Yamaha,
Kenwood
Hitachi
Sanyo etc

The English, American, Taiwanese and most European stuff doesn't rate in my books. Too unreliable, poorly made or just plain cheap crap in the case of Taiwanese NAD etc (except for the stuff they had made in Japan for them). It doesn't help that we didn't see much here in any case. The good stuff from the US stayed in the US sadly for us.

Your comment re the semiconductor manufacturers is true. Open up early 1st/2nd generation CD players and many were simply Toshiba machines, built in Toshiba factories for Kenwood/Onkyo/etc, full of Toshiba ICs on Toshiba PCBs. Open up a vintage Hitachi integrated amplifier and revel in the entire semiconductor array being Hitachi. There is always something nice about a product where the brand on the front panel translates to the guts inside. Not many were like that and these days, its still seen in Panasonic/Sanyo machines (blurays etc). Sony CD players had a huge amount of Sony silicon and optics in them.

 

[malden]

I would consider all the Japanese brands when looking at quality vintage gear. No brands are off my list as they all produced great stuff.

Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz get the attention, but that leaves plenty of unappreciated truly excellent brands:

Akai,
Accuphase
Sony,
Technics,
Yamaha,
Kenwood
Hitachi
Sanyo etc

The English, American, Taiwanese and most European stuff doesn't rate in my books. Too unreliable, poorly made or just plain cheap crap in the case of Taiwanese NAD etc (except for the stuff they had made in Japan for them). It doesn't help that we didn't see much here in any case. The good stuff from the US stayed in the US sadly for us..

I have the NAD 114 and 214 amp and preamp, both made in Taiwan in the early 90's. Never had any trouble with them and they sound excellent.

 

[theophile]

I'm sorry. I have to correct you here. The Mystique amplifier is an Australian brand name:

http://www.richter.com.au/shop/archived/amplifier-archive/mystique-valve-amplifier/

 

[E-Stat]

There seems to be great reverence for certain brands that I find hard to fathom. Why the praise heeped upon Pioneer, Sansui and Marantz to name a few? They were built to the same price points, used the same level of technology and parts, so other than big advertising budgets and dealer networks, why would one conside them any better than average?

I cannot think of a single reason. What defined the state of the art at that time was companies like Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, Mark Levinson, Dayton-Wright, and Threshold (among others).

 

[kirk57]

I cannot think of a single reason. What defined the state of the art at that time was companies like Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, Mark Levinson, Dayton-Wright, and Threshold (among others).

Sure, but unless you knew about that stuff (which most people didn't) you wouldn't aspire to own it.

Lots of people probably remember the gatefold ad for the Pioneer HPM-200. ARC didn't have any such presence in any of the more common audio magazines of the day.

 

[MJB1959]

I would consider all the Japanese brands when looking at quality vintage gear. No brands are off my list as they all produced great stuff.

Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz get the attention, but that leaves plenty of unappreciated truly excellent brands:

Akai,
Accuphase
Sony,
Technics,
Yamaha,
Kenwood
Hitachi
Sanyo etc

I feel that Nakamichi, Rotel, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Denon, Toshiba, Aiwa. Onkyo are good additions to your list, I have only experienced Yamaha and Nakamichi, as well as some Sony, but it all sounds good to my ears.

 

[Nightwisher]

I feel that Nakamichi, Rotel, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Denon, Toshiba, Aiwa. Onkyo are good additions to your list, I have only experienced Yamaha and Nakamichi, as well as some Sony, but it all sounds good to my ears.

Currently, my favorite high end Japanese gear is Nakamichi. Their receivers can fly under the radar, which is how I got my RE-2 for $58. Also their Stasis receivers and power amps are based on Nelson Pass's Threshold designs, which as E-Stat noted were state of the art in the 80's.
Luxman is another one (getting my hands on some more Luxman soon ). There's also Kyocera.

JVC made solid gear back in the day. They get bashed a lot but they made a solid product. I can't wait to get my RX-1001V monster receiver serviced at some point to see how that is supposed to sound.

Personally, I try to go with brands that are more under the radar and higher end. All my electronics are vintage Japanese, with the exception of some dbx, ADC, Burwen and SAE stuff (mainly processors) and a new Emotiva DAC, so I agree with restorer-john that vintage Japanese gear is worth going after. Personally, I can't afford high end vintage (or new) American gear, so I go with Japanese. American speakers, on the other hand, are plentiful in my systems.

 

[Xtinc]

...The fact was there was consumer audio that was technically just as good from companies that actually made semi conductors and consequently, their components were better value...

Hi, what are some of the brands you are referring?

 

[xero-D-hero]

I dont care what anybody says my little Sansui AU/TU-217 / SE-80 rack system sounds SUHWEET @ HE!!,LOL.
So I'd hafta guess maybe at least some of that praise is coming from people that actually own & enjoy those brands.

And remember,that AU/TU-217 was pretty much BOTL for that series of gear...

Lotta Really good sounding gear out there,and it's often where you'd least expect to find it.

JM2¢

Bret P.

 

[62vauxhall]

Hi, what are some of the brands you are referring?

Two were already mentioned Hitachi and Sanyo but I was thinking of Toshiba and NEC as well.

Toshiba made a small power/pre/tuner combo that retailed at or less than the importer's cost but in my experience, most of the public just walked past them. The salespeople who sold them bought them but not consumers.

One of the companies I was employed by also happened to be an NEC importer/distributor and so that product wound up on the shelves. There were two amplifiers, an A7 and an A11 that were (before the phrase became commonplace) built like a tank. They would frequently and demonstrably perform better than the better known units on hand but retail buyers would not even acknowledge them, asking instead to be shown Sansui or Akai. There was nothing wrong with either of those two brands in those days, just prejudice prior to consideration in the minds of consumers.

I was anti Compact Disc when the format came out. My motto was "give me analog or give me death". I watched the damned things in those long plastic blister packs and $35 price tags encroach into display space formerly occupied by records. Based on the titles I saw being stocked, I was concerned that it was going to be devoted to music I didn't listen to but that turned our to be an unfounded fear. Players that the company buyers chose to stock were to some degree few and far between with the majority being Philips and Sony models. I could not in good conscious even suggest that someone pay $300 ~ $400 for a Philips that was to me was just a plastic piece of crap. Sony's were more so did not sell as well. My CD listening experience then was in a word startling and not in a good way. But. there was this NEC model called a CD-803. The location I was at did not stock it because of it's price - expensive. However, a different location in another city did and their demo was shipped to my store to be used as a $200 loss leader in a sale flyer. I got wind of it and pounced on it when it arrived which severely PO'd other sales staff and even a few customers who were given a head's up one was coming.

But I digress. The point is, that player was, to the best of my knowledge, conceived and created wholly in house by NEC. And it could be listened to without wanting to turn the volume down. Akai marketed one also which we carried called a CD-D1 also not cheap at around $1000 but quite a bit less than the NEC. It was a lightweight by comparison, felt somewhat cheezy and provided a listening experience on par with in my opinion it's more "popularly priced" contemporaries but it did sell - it was in magazine ads.

Kind of regret giving the NEC away. I am led to believe that these days, one could name their own price if they had one to sell.

 

[xero-D-hero]

You do realize that more than a few of those coveted NEC CD players infact used the highly regarded Philips TDA1541 DAC in them,do you not ???
NEC CD-10 / CD-620 / CD-720 / CD-730 / CD-816 / CD-830DS all use a Philips TDA1541 DAC in them (and in some cases two of them)...

Some may debate that NEC Philips vs. Burr Brown CDP situation but the fact remains that the majority of NEC CD players used DAC's made by somebody else,and -not- NEC.

Oh yeah,the transports in the majority of these NEC CDP's were made by Sony.
Just not the CD-705 nor that CD-803...

Food for thought.

Bret P.

 

[HTWillie]

I think it was just what a lot of people wanted when they were kids and now they've got the coin and the space to enjoy it. Same with cars and other collectables.

+1
Sometimes there's things you never stop wanting to have, or have again. My father in law still wishes he didn't get rid of his '53 Studebaker back in the late 1960's. He still looks around for one when we visit California, but the right one hasn't emerged yet at the price he wants to pay.

Scuttlebutt was that Julian Hirsh never reviewed anything unless it was advertised (or that manufacturer advertised) in Stereo Review.

I remember a time when such an accusation would have sounded scandalous. It's just good business.

 

[E-Stat]

Sure, but unless you knew about that stuff (which most people didn't) you wouldn't aspire to own it.

Did you ever go to audio stores to see and hear new stuff?

While I was aware of Audio Research from the Audio magazine equipment listing, hearing Magneplanar Tympanis tri-amped by Audio Research gear at a local shop when I was 17 became a pivotal experience.

 

[62vauxhall]

Somewhat off topic but I did bring up the CD-803.

Yes, quite aware that NEC used outsourced DAC 's. In fact I was loosely in the market for a CD-703 specifically because it contained a TD1541. I was inclined to think I would prefer one more than the similarly equipped Philips models I was dabbling with at the time. Never ran into one though.

As mentioned, the company I was with was also the importer and wholesale distributor. Once or twice a year the factory representative from Japan would visit and host evening product knowledge seminars (including a dinner) at some top notch hotel. One of those seminars was devoted nearly exclusively to the CD-803. It had already been available in Asia but we were to be the first in Canada to sell it. I remember it emphasized that it was totally constructed in house. Being a semiconductor factory, it was explained that NEC was well aware of the marketing push compact discs were about to get. But the devices/hardware available at the time all had shortcomings and limitations so they designed and built the 803.

My intent was to point out that some Japanese manufacturers whose existance is barely acknowledged had the capacity, resources and expertise to make a superlative audio product. But with no advertising hype or editorial buzz it dies. The oohs and ahhs are accoladed elsewhere.

Not meaning to offend any one personally but Douglas Adams wrote of advertising executives being included in the useless 1/3 of the population.

 

[orsen]

Sure, but unless you knew about that stuff (which most people didn't) you wouldn't aspire to own it.

Lots of people probably remember the gatefold ad for the Pioneer HPM-200. ARC didn't have any such presence in any of the more common audio magazines of the day.

i luv all things audio
my gf looks at thrifts for me, i tell her regularly, the best stuff is stuff you've never heard of

 

[xero-D-hero]

I was'nt offended,just was'nt entirely sure if you were aware of that situation.

All I can say is nowadays any DAC with the TDA1541 is gonna be worth twice what a similar quality DAC is going for.
And the high end CDPs that used that TDA1541 DAC demand even higher premiums yet,especially if badged by a Co. like Marantz,Sony,NEC or Micro Seiki or such.

The only reason the Magnavox and some Philips CDPs dont draw the really big $$$ and lusty stares is because of what you note about their construction (ie: they use a lotta plastic).
But those CDPs still sound really great and they have some of the best transports ever made in them,those Philips transports are super reliable and they last (nearly) forever,and they read everything and almost never skip.
Which is one thing nobody will ever say about those Sony transports.

Now sure some of the CDP's using specific BB PCM DACs fit into that paradigm as well,PCM56/PCM58/PCM61/PCM63/PCM64 are all pretty respectable DACs in their own right.
So yeah something like that PCM63 can easily go head2head with that Philips TDA1541,but most of the time those CDP's are handicapped by those Sony tranports & their lasers.

So yeah it's easy to ponder "what about the unsung heros of the audio world,where's their respect" but to do so at the expense of other Co.s is probably a bit shortsighted by some accounts.
You gotta trust that people that really know their $h!t no exactly what those "underdogs" are all about.

I know I would never sell NEC gear short.

As for Sanyo,I have a C55+ preamp in my portable rack case set-up and it's an awesome little preamp,all in a super compact 1ru rack unit,so yeah some of us know about that sorta gear as well.

JM2¢

Bret P.

 

[xero-D-hero]

Damn,that second sentence should've read:

"All I can say is nowadays any CDP with the TDA1541 DAC is gonna be worth twice what a similar quality CDP with another brand DAC is going for."

D@mn forum locked me out from editing that post due to some funky glitch of some sort,,,sorry folks...

Bret P.

 

[tarior]

With the exception of loudspeakers, and maybe a few notable other exceptions, Japanese gear was vastly superior in every way at any given price point from about 1971 on. Particularly in build quality and reliability. Anything that matched a comparable Japanese unit in features, power (if applicable), build quality, and reliability was nearly always a fair bit more expensive.
I've been working on these things for a living for about 10 years now. Just my observation.
Hey, look at that. My 5000th post. Neat.