Mystique of some Japanese brand names

[Mister Pig]

Maybe this post will be an epic fail, or perhaps there is something of interest to someone on AK. I really don't know, and I am not sure I can fully express the intent here, but am willing to give it a try.

Recently I viewed a TED Talk at a training session, and it resonates with me, and I believe it is pertinant to discussions like this. It is called The Danger of a Single Story.

The presenter is an author, and her talk discusses how a single story can be used to stereotype, control, or dehumanize a segment of humanity due to how the story of their existence is told.

I happen to think it can also apply to a discussion like this, the mystique of Japanese or any other electronics. Telling a single story restrains the subject into a two dimensional caricature of an unfolding and overarching story.

Within a thread there are many stories, some that are core to the discussion, some that provide context, and others that relate personal experience to the events. Within this thread there re multiple stories that present different context, but it the whole of these stories that give a more complete rendition of the events.

What becomes dangerous in real life is when these stories are suppressed, or when one story is fabricated to define a person or people, and in our case an industry or company. This is what happens when people attempt to shout down others, define them as unfit to be a member here, belittle their observations, or dismissive of their experiences. Audio on AK can be experienced in a myriad of ways, and not everyone likes the same gear, or has the same experiences during an era of hi fi. Within the posts of this thread there are many valid points from all parties, and they are a small story in the overall story of our hobby. The original post was broad in nature, and therefore elicits a wide range of responses. You might or might not agree with other posters, you might see history differently, but the idea that others are wrong because they do not agree with you is forcing the narrative to that Single Story. Which can be misleading, or paint an incomplete picture.

Don't have time to write anymore as I am out the door for work. If you got time watch the video, you might find it interesting.

Cheers
Mister Pig

 

[Ken Boyd]

Typically the domestic company has the advantage when it comes to sound quality versus price, as there are many factors that an imported component has to overcome. There are importation costs, the additional layer of proft required by a distributor, possibly extra advertising costs, the need to build different power supply configurations, the cost of warranty in a different country, and so on. When you look at what people paid for American products in Europe for instance, a Krell or a Rowland was insanely expensive to their domestic products. Import electronics have some difficult challenges in any country.

Cheers
Mister Pig

You missed a couple, labor cost, and modern manufacturing facilities. The Japanese had that going over both European and American manufacturing at the time. Imports were less expensive for the most part.

The Rotel RB-5000 was kind of a mystique amp from Japan. You don't see many of them, it had those big meters that went up to 1K watts per channel. I wouldn't mind owning one for my Infinity bass towers.

 

[Ds2000]

I spoke to a well known audio distributor named Bob, back when I worked for CSA in Upper Montclair in the later 90’s. By then, he had already been in the biz for 30+ years. He visited often and we spoke on a variety of topics.

Yes the Japanese had modern mfg. facilities, but the more specialized items weren’t made in those facilities. Also shipping, and the cost of more robust packing containers was a real killer for low volume items. As mentioned, we saw a few of them, (like the M-510), but the GS-1 and Scepter 5001 stayed in Japan. They likely would have sat at the prices they would have had to charge, the possibility of default from the dealer existed, not to mention costly parts stocked for repair. Dimensional shipping charges on speakers are the blow too. Remember, low number items with likely special shipping instructions.

The JPY was really low against the dollar, but the risk was still unreasonably high. There is a good chance the public here wouldn’t have responded. Yes they did a market study.

On the volume sellers, just palletize, containerize and send it on a ship. In those cases the added costs were fractional, and even at dealer cost, these items earned Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha and Technics boatloads.

 

[stoutblock]

Sony, Pioneer, Technics, Yamaha, Accuphase and Nakamichi all had some very high end audio equipment in the late 70s and early 80s that I would consider having substantial “Mystique”. Not to mention the many, many cartridges that have come out of Japan over the years that are about as mystical as possible. I would go as far as to say that these Japanese audio companies combined have probably made a larger quantity of rare mystical audio equipment than anywhere else in the world?

Spend an hour reviewing equipment on The Vintage Audio Knob website for many examples. http://www.thevintageknob.org/index.php

With that said, the most "Mystique" of all equipment ever made probably did not come out of Japan.

 

[arts]

with someone inevitably arguing that the true motorcyclist only rides a Hesketh

I dunno about that...I could never get around the psychotic chicken crest

 

[4-2-7]

These posts are typical of this member and not remotely in the spirit of Audiokarma. I should know, I've been here since it started (or close to it). I don't like it at all. To be honest, it's just toxic, divisive and sad.

Wrong.
A member stating an opinion of how they experienced the audio world. What was going on at the time and the different pecking orders is not against any spirit of Audiokarma. It's called a conversation within a topic.

Without the Japanese brands, this entire site would have never even got off the ground.

Wrong. But it is needed to fix all this old Japanese brand gear, as it seems all needing to be fixed.
In fact your livelihood depends on this fact, so promoting as something more, it actually helps your business.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah your wrong and your post was actually an attack on a member and not the first time I'v seen you do it to the pig.

 

[David_NC]

Of strong interest to me has been stereo equipment and music since I was a teenager in the 1960's. So much so that I got into the business in my early 20's and remained there in one aspect or another for over 30 years.

I have been puzzled somewhat over the past few of those years when interest in what's now considered vintage two channel has increased. There seems to be great reverence for certain brands that I find hard to fathom. Why the praise heeped upon Pioneer, Sansui and Marantz to name a few? They were built to the same price points, used the same level of technology and parts, so other than big advertising budgets and dealer networks, why would one conside them any better than average?

Granted, there was a watts war and bragging rights went with the latest biggest, baddest receiver but not all manufactures participated in mainstream marketing to that point.

The fact was there was consumer audio that was technically just as good from companies that actually made semi conductors and consequently, their components were better value. Seems to me that those seeds of big bucks guided consumerism planted decades ago still bear fruit today. Scuttlebutt was that Julian Hirsh never reviewed anything unless it was advertised (or that manufacturer advertised) in Stereo Review.

I think much of that praise is simply because they were so plentiful and accessible and affordable. Many of us grew up with lower-end models from the Big Three listed above. Even if we started out with a really basic US-made audio component, many of the models from this manufacturers looked nice, even if they were comparable electronically and in terms of sound. Show a younger individual, who's at least somewhat into audio equipment, a row or receivers and amps. Certain models will draw people to them. The big blackout tuning dials with blue backlighting, and later the big silver dials with soft off-white lighting did the same thing. Add a couple power meters, especially big ones, and it's an attention magnet. Some of that (minus the tuning dials) describes most models of McIntosh amps that I've seen - current and older models - in person and online. There's an attraction to those big Japanese receivers that still carries over today, and THAT is part of the mystique. Very few brands display that today, and the ones that do tend to be higher end models out of the budget of many, if not most, of those who would buy them if possible. Vintage Japanese audio equipment was the 'muscle car' of the audio world. As such, they were fun, had a certain look, performed well enough, and were affordable, compared to a true sports car. Vintage muscle cars have always been desirable, too.
My first system, in the mid-late 70's, consisted of a Pioneer receiver and cassette deck, a Technics turntable, and a pair of Bose 301's. Buying equipment from the same brand made sense, in a way, assuming that the performance and price point were where they needed to be. Branding was and is very much alive. What affordable options for cassette decks that were made in the US were there? How about a good, reliable automatic turntable that was made in the US back then?
As we continued on our audio path, we upgraded. Depending on where we were in life, we wanted more features, more power, better performance, and more bling. I started out with an SX-780, which I still consider a good beginner receiver for the day. My next one was a used SX-1050. That receiver certainly sounded better than the 780. It had a great tuner (for the area where I lived), it looked nice, and it was powerful. Next up was an Adcom GTP-550II and NAD 2200 with some sort of large bookshelf Morel speakers. That system arguably sounded better, but it's looks were... well, I felt OK closing it in a cabinet. Those were not display pieces for sure.
I still have all my old equipment, minus a Sherwood AVR from the mid-90's. The SX-1050 needs service, and the tape decks need help. The much-later NAD and Adcom work perfectly. Even today, that big Pioneer still gets the attention. I think that is part of the mystique.

 

[4-2-7]

Maybe this post will be an epic fail, or perhaps there is something of interest to someone on AK. I really don't know, and I am not sure I can fully express the intent here, but am willing to give it a try.

Recently I viewed a TED Talk at a training session, and it resonates with me, and I believe it is pertinant to discussions like this. It is called The Danger of a Single Story.

The presenter is an author, and her talk discusses how a single story can be used to stereotype, control, or dehumanize a segment of humanity due to how the story of their existence is told.

I happen to think it can also apply to a discussion like this, the mystique of Japanese or any other electronics. Telling a single story restrains the subject into a two dimensional caricature of an unfolding and overarching story.

Within a thread there are many stories, some that are core to the discussion, some that provide context, and others that relate personal experience to the events. Within this thread there re multiple stories that present different context, but it the whole of these stories that give a more complete rendition of the events.

What becomes dangerous in real life is when these stories are suppressed, or when one story is fabricated to define a person or people, and in our case an industry or company. This is what happens when people attempt to shout down others, define them as unfit to be a member here, belittle their observations, or dismissive of their experiences. Audio on AK can be experienced in a myriad of ways, and not everyone likes the same gear, or has the same experiences during an era of hi fi. Within the posts of this thread there are many valid points from all parties, and they are a small story in the overall story of our hobby. The original post was broad in nature, and therefore elicits a wide range of responses. You might or might not agree with other posters, you might see history differently, but the idea that others are wrong because they do not agree with you is forcing the narrative to that Single Story. Which can be misleading, or paint an incomplete picture.

Don't have time to write anymore as I am out the door for work. If you got time watch the video, you might find it interesting.

Cheers
Mister Pig

Yep, propaganda is never good in any facet of life, or maybe one would prefer the term groupthink. Either way it's the same thing with the same objective and intent.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Sony, Pioneer, Technics, Yamaha, Accuphase and Nakamichi all had some very high end audio equipment in the late 70s and early 80s that I would consider having substantial “Mystique”. Not to mention the many, many cartridges that have come out of Japan over the years that are about as mystical as possible. I would go as far as to say that these Japanese audio companies combined have probably made a larger quantity of rare mystical audio equipment than anywhere else in the world?

Spend an hour reviewing equipment on The Vintage Audio Knob website for many examples. http://www.thevintageknob.org/index.php

With that said, the most "Mystique" of all equipment ever made probably did not come out of Japan.

I think it is safe to say many great tonearms came out of Asia as well.

 

[Ken Boyd]

It is a real shame that people get so ruffled over these threads. They really are nothing to get upset about.

 

[4-2-7]

You missed a couple, labor cost, and modern manufacturing facilities.

As soon as I started to read your post, I couldn't help this from popping into my head.

 

[JP]

Yep, propaganda is never good in any facet of life, or maybe one would prefer the term groupthink. Either way it's the same thing with the same objective and intent.

Group think is a psychological phenomena - not even remotely similar to propaganda.

 

[restorer-john]

Wrong.
A member stating an opinion of how they experienced the audio world. What was going on at the time and the different pecking orders is not against any spirit of Audiokarma. It's called a conversation within a topic.

No it isn't. It all about the attitude of the content, something that we try to leave at the door in this place. It was stating limited experience and opinion as if it is an incontrovertible fact- it's not. Drawing a very long bow that experience in one place, area, or country is typical of the entire world- newsflash, it's not. It is small town thinking. Belittling and putting down people's choices through thinly veiled (or not) snide remarks. Over and over. It's boorish, completely wrong, and I'll call it as I see it.

Wrong. But it is needed to fix all this old Japanese brand gear, as it seems all needing to be fixed.
In fact your livelihood depends on this fact, so promoting as something more, it actually helps your business.

Nope. When it comes to reliability, there is simply no comparison- the Japanese stuff wins hands down and has done for over half a century. Many thousands of times more Japanese gear was sold than all the other brands added up. Why? Because it offered fantastic value, measured performance, features and reliability, and it didn't look like something made in a garage.
Wrong. Don't need or want to be paid or take on new jobs in audio. Never have since AK started. It is done solely for fun and for friends, family and valued people I know. I share my experience for free to help others repair their gear, and have done since day one on AK. Can't say the same about everyone here, some are here clearly to make money. I am not one of them, and have no axes to grind.

Yeah your wrong and your post was actually an attack on a member and not the first time I'v seen you do it to the pig.

I attacked the relentless snide remarks in the posts and make no apologies for that. Consider I am not the only one to make a stand against it either. We can do a lot better.