Need advice, smaller size caps for KLH 5 (circuitboard version)

[Old Guy8]

I need advice for rebuilding crossover circuitboards on my KLH 5's. There is not a lot of room to replace the old 50 v caps. Two of the caps are actually two caps in one.
(one) 4+4 uf cap
(one) 3+4 uf cap
(one) 16 uf
(one) 25 uf
I will have to use 6 caps to replace these 4.
Are there SMALLER size caps I can use instead of 250 v Daytons, without spending arm and leg? Looks like I will have to stack some on top of others to fit in.
I'm not a circuitboad warrior. Electronics not my background. I've replaced caps in a few speakers

 

[drbiggles]

Hey,

I did a pair last year, no big deal. Yes, you're going to have to stack 'em. I had some solid core wire that I used to extend the leads on the upper caps. But once you have the new caps in your hand and play with it for a second or three, it all comes together.

Biggles

 

[Old Guy8]

B

Hey,

I did I'veair last year, no big deal. Yes, you're going to have to stack 'em. I had some solid core wire that I used to extend the leads on the upper caps. But once you have the new caps in your hand and play with it for a second or three, it all comes together.

Biggles

Biggles,
What do you use to adhere them in board and between. I've used hot glue. But when investigating klh5 rebuild at classicspeakerpages someone advised against hot glue on some types of caps. Suppose I could use some adhesive caulk that could later be removed, if needed.
There were before and after pics of a rebuild at that site. That person used 150 v caps.
Did you notice a differance after recap?
thanks for reply.
old guy

 

[c5corvette]

Here are mine after recap. Hope it helps.

 

[drbiggles]

Hey,

I tried hot glue a few times years ago. I found it was a lousy adhesive to modern caps, pulled right off. I moved over to Amazing Goop, after trying a few others. It's available everywhere and sticks exceptionally well. And, it dries somewhat flexible so it absorbs vibration. But I would think any halfway decent adhesive that sounds similar will do the job just FINE.

I didn't audition the speakers before the recap, they belong to a local AK member. That being said, after installing new caps in vintage speakers for more than a few years, I can say I've always had a positive result. Those caps in the KLH Fives were inexpensive electrolytics when they were new. Capacitors age, their value can drift and the ESR (resistance) will grow. Your highs and mids will sound dull, sometimes they will only work to some degree. With new capacitors, the drivers open up and you'll here that wide open, airy soundstage that they're supposed to have. The detail and precision will improve.

Biggles

 

[Old Guy8]

c5corvette,
Thanks for pics. I too may look for some 100 or 150 v caps, first.

Biggles,
I'll look for that or similar glue. Think your right, time for new caps after 50 years.

1) I have already redoped the woofer surrounds, dustcaps, and mid surrounds.
2) Will replace driver gaskets.
3) I'm on lookout for a couple mid drivers for one speaker that is non-original.
4) Then will do some steel wool and oil on cabinets

 

[gbroot]

FYI. I have also used some of PE's electrolytic bi-polar caps rather than the larger Dayton Film caps in some of my speaker projects. KLH 6's and some Nova 6's. To be honest I really didn't see any difference sonically when switching the Daytons out so I ended up leaving the lytics in. The lytics are a quarter of the size and very inexpensive. I know, the lytics only have a service life of 20 years. O well!

 

[drbiggles]

Hey Old Guy,

Finding modern poly caps for crossovers in the 100 to 150 volt range is going to be tough, it may be impossible. I haven't seen any, but I haven't looked specifically. But you don't have to use poly caps, nope. You can go to Erse Audio and see if they have any of their non-polar electrolytics available. There are also Bennic NP electrolytics at Parts Express. Gbroot is right, you can save quite a bit of money going this route. See if you can find the values you need from one of those first.

Biggles

 

[gbroot]

If exact values aren't available order in some extra 1-2uf bi-polar lytics to bring the value up to exact. Make sure and twist their leads together in parallel rather than end to end.

 

[gbroot]

My 5's have the circuitboard as well. I was very nervous going in. Ended up being a piece of cake. What's nice is that the board can be removed from the cabinet and you can do your work on a bench. In my case to the delight of my wife, the kitchen table! Take pictures and make sure and mark the wire leads with masking tape. I used a very difficult numbering system...1,2,3,4,5,6. I know it's difficult but it worked!

 

[Old Guy8]

gbroot and Biggles,
I will look into lytics. The Fives are fifty years old. I don't know how long a lifespan they have, but lytics may last long enough, at least for me. I've used polys in my other speakers. But the combination of smaller size and lower cost make lytics a good option.
thanks for your time and willingness to share your experiences. It is what makes AK a great interactive site.
old guy

 

[drbiggles]

OG,

You're welcome and the electrolytics that are made today far surpass that of the ones made 40+ years ago. And, they'll give you a closer rendition of what they originally sounded like.

Biggles

 

[Old Guy8]

gbroot,
Was just at the home improvement box store. Along with a stain marker for the cabinets, looked for preprinted tape referance stickers elecricians use. Did not find, so will just mark some tape so the three black wires get back right. 1,2,3.... Yes, removing the circuit board shoulf help.
Sounds like a plan.

Thanks again to all for your help.

 

[GD70]

I've been using clear silicone for adhesive. Never had a problem with them coming loose.

 

[Old Guy8]

I've been using clear silicone for adhesive. Never had a problem with them coming loose.

Good idea. Will try.Thanks. Ordering lytics and some 1/8" x 1/2" sealing tape for woofers, tomorrow. Will rotate woofers 180° when done.
Old Guy

Everyone likes pics. I don't know what color they were originally. Now they do have a little red tinge. I like it. Cabinets are starting off in nice shape, for 50 years. I did a little scratch touchup with Minwax Early American color stain marker. Left on a couple minutes and wiped. Took wild guess on color, matched ok. It's cardboard color wasn't close. They will recieve some work when its warm enough outside. I won't get the compression marks out, but veneer is all there except under 1/4" one bottom back corner and one 1/8" top edge nick.
Interested what they endup sounding like with new caps and when one speakers non-original mids get replaced. The non original mids look like some wizzer cone Belgian made I've seen on the bay. They are hotter and brighter. Compensated with crossover switches best i could.
Thanks again to all.
old guy

 

[GD70]

Good idea. Will try.Thanks. Ordering lytics and some 1/8" x 1/2" sealing tape for woofers, tomorrow. Will rotate woofers 180° when done.
Old Guy
View attachment 864477
Everyone likes pics. I don't know what color they were originally. Now they do have a little red tinge. I like it. Cabinets are starting off in nice shape, for 50 years. I did a little scratch touchup with Minwax Early American color stain marker. Left on a couple minutes and wiped. Took wild guess on color, matched ok. It's cardboard color wasn't close. They will recieve some work when its warm enough outside. I won't get the compression marks out, but veneer is all there except under 1/4" one bottom back corner and one 1/8" top edge nick.
Interested what they endup sounding like with new caps and when one speakers non-original mids get replaced. The non original mids look like some wizzer cone Belgian made I've seen on the bay. They are hotter and brighter. Compensated with crossover switches best i could.
Thanks again to all.
old guy

The color looks original, mine look the same. Once you have these restored you will be very happy.
Glenn

 

[BobHol]

It is my understanding from reading and asking questions around here that Capacitors usually serve one of two different purposes. 1)prevent lower frequencies from going to mid and high frequency drivers. These caps are usually inline with the driver. 2) Prevent higher frequencies from going to woofers and mids. These caps are more likely parallel to the driver that they serve. I was led to believe that cap's doing 1) are more likely to affect sound and are a good place for poly or better capacitors. Caps serving as 2) are less likely to affect the sound of a driver and could be smaller modern electrolytes. If you can post a schematic of your crossover somebody here should be able to give further advise in regards to cap replacement.

 

[Drugolf]

I am becoming a fan of using NPE's. Keeps the design as close to original intent as possible (as far as we know).
You shouldn't have too much difficulty finding some replacement mids. Hate to say it but there are a bunch of vulchers out there that pick thrifts, auctions etc just to flip and most speakers they have learned need to be parted to ship. Ugh.

 

[Old Guy8]

I am becoming a fan of using NPE's. Keeps the design as close to original intent as possible (as far as we know).
You shouldn't have too much difficulty finding some replacement mids. Hate to say it but there are a bunch of vulchers out there that pick thrifts, auctions etc just to flip and most speakers they have learned need to be parted to ship. Ugh.

Original intent. Agree. Older east coast sound has its charm, like the old tube radios. They will never be a B&W Diamond, and I'm ok with that, and the $13k savings.

 

[Old Guy8]

It is my understanding from reading and asking questions around here that Capacitors usually serve one of two different purposes. 1)prevent lower frequencies from going to mid and high frequency drivers. These caps are usually inline with the driver. 2) Prevent higher frequencies from going to woofers and mids. These caps are more likely parallel to the driver that they serve. I was led to believe that cap's doing 1) are more likely to affect sound and are a good place for poly or better capacitors. Caps serving as 2) are less likely to affect the sound of a driver and could be smaller modern electrolytes. If you can post a schematic of your crossover somebody here should be able to give further advise in regards to cap replacement.

Bob,
Thanks for your comments. I've used poly caps in three other speaker recaps. In this case, because of the circuitboard and having to stack, I think smaller lytics are a good option. Will see what they cost. I plan on keeping these speakers, but watching budget also.

I've changed out the screw/nut bindings posts for five ways, on my Advents. But here, going the keep them. Iwill likely use some 90° spade to female banana adapters, I like, found on the bay. My speaker wires are like a rock, scissors, paper game. Only it's spade, pin and banana ends. Mating to banana, screw/nut or spring clip posts when switching speakers out.