Need help finding the right cartridge for my system

[Paul McShart]

So my system consists of...

Technics SL1700 mk1
Grado X2 +
Pioneer SX990
ADS 620s

The problem I'm having is that while I've been told the Grado is a great cart, I'm pretty sure the stylus is worn (distortion on highs). Though maybe it's not set up right...I'm pretty new to the vinyl game. For those curious, I've set the VTF to 1.65g (tried between 1.6-1.8 using a scale and found it didn't improve the highs much, so I've just left it at 1.65). Also, I've read that Grado's prefer less antiskate to no antiskate, and so I've left it completely off. This seemed to open up the sound but maybe it's placebo.

Anyways, if the stylus is indeed damaged, and the cart is worth saving and using in my system, I've decided to take it to Needlestein (Joseph) as a recommended by a very kind fellow AKer. After contacting Joseph, he told me that for 175, I can get a "nude Ogura Vital PE on a narrow gauge hardened tapered aluminum magnesium alloy cantilever."

I've also done some more research on other brands of carts and found that the AT vm540ml seems like a really exceptional cart that also plays really well with my turntable. However, it is 250.

I don't mind shelling out the extra bucks if the AT vm540ml is the better cart for my system (and perhaps down the line, I'll purchase the retip for my Grado), but I guess I just need help on where to go from here. What do you guys think would be the best for my system.

FYI, I listen to mainly rock, jazz, and indie. Really into Pink Floyd, Loving, Zeppelin, Steely Dan, King Gizzard

 

[Crab33]

I think your question should be finding the right cartridge for you and your tastes, although obviously your system plays a key role. Some people prefer a warm sound with soft highs while others prefer a brighter, crisper sound with oodles of high-frequency detail, or perhaps somewhere between the two.

The Grado cartridges (at least the modern ones) have a reputation for a warm sound. It appears that retailers are suggesting the current Prestige Gold stylus as a replacement stylus for your cartridge.

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Grado-X2+-Stylus-MA1636-6.html

If you are in the US, you should have also have access to the 8MZ stylus, which some people prefer to the Prestige styli. Of course, you also have your retip route - I couldn't comment on how this might change the sound but it seems like a worthy route, as a nude Vital stylus on a narrow tapered cantilever sounds very promising to me, especially for the price.

An AT cartridge should give you a different sound experience as compared with the Grado house sound. The AT-VM540ML is well-loved on these pages. I don't have it but have one of its predecessors, the AT440MLa. I would expect the VM540ML to sound brighter (or more neutral) with more explicit high-frequency detail than the Grado. The MicroLine stylus is the best 'off the shelf' stylus that I know for tracking - sibilance becomes a thing of the past. You may also want to consider the AT-VM95ML, also with MicroLine stylus, especially if you want to retain a touch of warmth.

By the way, with the ATs, you should also pay attention to capacitive load. AT recommend a low value in the range 100-200pF for all their MM cartridges. If you go beyond this range, the sound balance becomes brighter. The Grados are less sensitive to capacitive load, probably because they have very low internal inductance - at least this is the case for the current Prestige models.

 

[Paul McShart]

Thanks for the detailed response! Yeah I've definitely read about the sound differences between the two styles of carts, I guess I do prefer a warmer sound and maybe the Grado might suit my ears better. At the same time, I wonder how Grados sound with more complex recordings like a lot of the floyd stuff...maybe the AT's will be better for that. Plus the microline really caught my attention when people were saying that it was an amazing tracker with no sibilance.

Oh and Im aware about the replacement styli for the grados, I was definitely considering them but the retip route seems to be more cost effective for what I get (ive read the new grados are bounded, whether that translates to worse sound, im not sure)

And thanks for telling me about the AT-vm95ml, I somehow missed that one in my search for an alternative cart...the microline is really what I wanted to try and for the price, looks like a steal! Definitely considering that too now.

Eventually I'll get both an AT and a retip down the line because it'd be good for me to try things out first hand and really find out what I like, I guess it's just a matter of what seems best at the moment

 

[Paul McShart]

Oh and thanks for the heads up about the capacitance, Im looking for a dedicated phono pre to add to my system and will look for one that has adjustable capacitance

 

[Crab33]

Oh and thanks for the heads up about the capacitance, Im looking for a dedicated phono pre to add to my system and will look for one that has adjustable capacitance

I was just about to say... I don't know the internal capacitance of the phono-stage in your Pioneer receiver, but if you get an AT cartridge and find the sound balance a bit bright for your tastes, you could invest in a separate phono pre-amp with selectable capacitance to allow you to experiment with different settings. I have a Musical Fidelity phono pre-amp with this facility but other manufacturers also offer it.

 

[jrtrent]

. . . By the way, with the ATs, you should also pay attention to capacitive load. AT recommend a low value in the range 100-200pF for all their MM cartridges. If you go beyond this range, the sound balance becomes brighter. The Grados are less sensitive to capacitive load, probably because they have very low internal inductance - at least this is the case for the current Prestige models.

I've looked online for information about the OP's turntable and receiver, but could find nothing about cable capacitance or phono stage input capacitance. I know that prior to the late 1970's Shure's cartridges had a recommended range of 400-500pF, but they lowered that to 200-300pF saying that that had become a more common total capacitance figure for new 'tables and amps. I know that for most of the gear I've owned, 100-200pF is unrealistically low. For example, a Thorens TD146 turntable had 190pF and an NAD receiver had 220pF for a total of 410 pF Even an NAD pre-amp with adjustable input capacitance started at 100 pF, making 290pF total with the Thorens 'table. It would be nice to know the cable capacitance of that SL-1700 Mk1.

Grado does claim that its design is insensitive to capacitive load. The Ortofon OM line has a fairly broad acceptable capacitance range of 200-500pF, so that could be another option worth looking at.

Thanks for the detailed response! Yeah I've definitely read about the sound differences between the two styles of carts, I guess I do prefer a warmer sound and maybe the Grado might suit my ears better.

My suggestion would just be to get a new Grado cartridge if you like their warm sound. I've had a few Prestige cartridges as well as what used to be their entry-level wood body, the Platinum, and all had bonded elliptical styli. This didn't stop them from being exceptionally fine phono cartridges. I thought the Grado Green offered the best value, giving up, to my ears, very little to the higher-priced models. I should add that my tastes run more to classical than rock. I don't own any of the artists you mentioned (Pink Floyd, Loving, Zeppelin, Steely Dan, King Gizzard), but I do like jazz along the lines of Duke Ellington and Glen Miller.

 

[Crab33]

I agree that 100-200pF is rather low to achieve in practice, although it is do-able depending on how high the cable capacitance is. Some phono pre-amps offer capacitance settings below 100pF but these are few. My Musical Fidelity starts at 50pF and the Pro-ject Tube Box S2 goes down to 47pF.

https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/tube-box-s2/

 

[knotscott]

The sound you prefer is very subjective, and the right cartridge to achieve that is heavily influenced by the rest of your system, which makes it tough for anyone to tell you which cartridge you'll like better.

In general, nude shank styli transfer the information from the record better than bonded styli, so either of the upgrades that have mentioned so far should offer some improved clarity. Also in general, the finer shape of the line contact type profiles trace the groove of the LP better and offer better treble detail than broader elliptical or conical tips, but there are other electrical and physical factors involved that effect sound too. I'm not familiar with the custom tip that was mentioned for the Grado, but either the VM95ML or VM540ML should offer excellent performance. Both share the same stylus, but the VM540 has a somewhat better generator that should improve separation. In case it helps, Parts-Express offers a $15 off coupon with code "PREFR1", plus free s/h.

Let us know what you decide and how you make out.

 

[jrtrent]

. . . And thanks for telling me about the AT-vm95ml, I somehow missed that one in my search for an alternative cart...the microline is really what I wanted to try and for the price, looks like a steal! Definitely considering that too now.

Eventually I'll get both an AT and a retip down the line because it'd be good for me to try things out first hand and really find out what I like, I guess it's just a matter of what seems best at the moment

I don't know how much vinyl you listen to, but over the years I've typically worn out a stylus each year (being retired, and having more time, I now replace my stylus every 6 months), and it can be fun to just try something different each time you wear out a stylus. Sometimes you get something you don't like as much, but I almost always found something of value in a cartridge, something that made me happy to just enjoy what it does until that stylus needed replacing.

Your mentioning liking warm sound reminded me of some quotes I had seen respecting conical styli:

Ed Selley: All conical stylus designs I have ever listened to have a very definite character to their performance. Much of the attributes of ‘vinyl warmth’ and the emphasis on the midrange can trace their origin to the use of this stylus profile.

J. Gordon Holt (reviewing the V15 type IV): The elliptical is, in theory at least, a more accurate reproducer of recorded high-frequency information than is the spherical. In terms of listenability, though, the elliptical-stylus version has been found to have a somewhat "hot" high end; all of our auditioners indicated a preference for the spherical, despite its theoretical inferiority.

Art Dudley: Record lovers who enjoy the extra shimmer, sparkle, detail, and air brought to the listening experience by elliptical or more radical stylus profiles have nothing to be ashamed of: those choices are sonically and musically valid. But I continue to prefer the spherical experience—to me, it emphasizes musical content over air, allowing instruments and voices to sound more substantial, and music to sound, overall, less fussy than with other tip types.

Herb Reichert reviewed several budget cartridges, including four versions of the VM95 (VM95C, VM95E, VM95ML, VM95SH) and concluded: Music-pleasure–wise, Audio-Technica's VM95C was the most satisfying cartridge in this survey. It shifted my perspective and made me reconsider what I thought I knew about phonography.

My preference at present is for conical styli. Since Shure has stopped making replacements for the M97xE, I've used an AT91R, an AT-VM95C, and a Sumiko Oyster on my two turntables (Rega RP3 and AT-LP120XUSB). These budget cartridges have given me very enjoyable sound (and I could name 8 other conically-equipped cartridges I've enjoyed over the decades) with no tracking issues or problems with inner groove distortion.

If money is not unlimited, as you seemed to imply when mentioning the AT-VM540ML's cost, you could always choose the $110 VM510CB to get the better generator Knotscott mentioned, then try the VMN40ML stylus after you've enjoyed the conical for a while. The same can be done with Ortofon's OM line if you think its higher recommended capacitance range is a good idea. Trying a lot of different things over time is part of the fun.

 

[InfantOfProg]

I don't know how much vinyl you listen to, but over the years I've typically worn out a stylus each year (being retired, and having more time, I now replace my stylus every 6 months), and it can be fun to just try something different each time you wear out a stylus. Sometimes you get something you don't like as much, but I almost always found something of value in a cartridge, something that made me happy to just enjoy what it does until that stylus needed replacing.

Your mentioning liking warm sound reminded me of some quotes I had seen respecting conical styli:

Ed Selley: All conical stylus designs I have ever listened to have a very definite character to their performance. Much of the attributes of ‘vinyl warmth’ and the emphasis on the midrange can trace their origin to the use of this stylus profile.

J. Gordon Holt (reviewing the V15 type IV): The elliptical is, in theory at least, a more accurate reproducer of recorded high-frequency information than is the spherical. In terms of listenability, though, the elliptical-stylus version has been found to have a somewhat "hot" high end; all of our auditioners indicated a preference for the spherical, despite its theoretical inferiority.

Art Dudley: Record lovers who enjoy the extra shimmer, sparkle, detail, and air brought to the listening experience by elliptical or more radical stylus profiles have nothing to be ashamed of: those choices are sonically and musically valid. But I continue to prefer the spherical experience—to me, it emphasizes musical content over air, allowing instruments and voices to sound more substantial, and music to sound, overall, less fussy than with other tip types.

Herb Reichert reviewed several budget cartridges, including four versions of the VM95 (VM95C, VM95E, VM95ML, VM95SH) and concluded: Music-pleasure–wise, Audio-Technica's VM95C was the most satisfying cartridge in this survey. It shifted my perspective and made me reconsider what I thought I knew about phonography.

My preference at present is for conical styli. Since Shure has stopped making replacements for the M97xE, I've used an AT91R, an AT-VM95C, and a Sumiko Oyster on my two turntables (Rega RP3 and AT-LP120XUSB). These budget cartridges have given me very enjoyable sound (and I could name 8 other conically-equipped cartridges I've enjoyed over the decades) with no tracking issues or problems with inner groove distortion.

If money is not unlimited, as you seemed to imply when mentioning the AT-VM540ML's cost, you could always choose the $110 VM510CB to get the better generator Knotscott mentioned, then try the VMN40ML stylus after you've enjoyed the conical for a while. The same can be done with Ortofon's OM line if you think its higher recommended capacitance range is a good idea. Trying a lot of different things over time is part of the fun.

I just recently put a AT-VM95ML on my Technics SL-Q3 and it sounds fantastic. I do think I’ll pick up the super affordable VM95C stylus, just for fun and comparison purposes.

 

[HPMguy]

Lol, cartridges live in as big a rabbit hole as speakers do!

If you are getting distortion or silibence on the highs and words with "s" in them, there are two or three potential causes.

Worn or badly recorded vinyl -- if the hiss is on the recording, it's not going away with a difference stylus or cartridge.

Less than perfect stylus alignment in all three axes -- the stylus needs to be as close to exactly sideways in the groove (this is an approximation in swing arm tables, you can choose one or two places were it's perfect and the rest of the record will be off some), it must be perfectly vertical to the groove (azimuth, not always easy to fix) and it must sit straight up in the groove, not leaning forward or back. All of this is difficult to get exactly right since the stylus tip is tiny and in my case my vision is going the way all old people's vision goes.

Some tables have a vertical tracking adjustment that allows you to move the arm up and down to get the stylus exactly upright in the groove, others do not, but you can adjust the height of the turntable mat up with shims of some sort made of perfectly flat material. Should be close on less expsenive tables, but on high end ones there is usually and adjustment.

An alignment protractor will get the cartridge and stylus at the correct angle to the grooves provided you pay close attention to the cantilever -- they are not always perfectly aligned to the cartridge, and the cantilever is what counts.

Azimuth is adjustable by shimming the cartridge in the headshell to get the stylus vertical -- again, the stylus, not necessarily the cartridge.

P-mount linear tracker tables eliminate all this, they aren't adjustable. Sadly that means a stylus not set up perfectly in the holder can't be adjusted either.

I have lent/given my Panasonic linear tracker to a musician buddy to use, and it has a nearly perfect cartridge and stylus set up -- no silibance at all, dead quiet, plays rough old records very nicely, and so far has not had the stylus gum up like my Sansui did for him. Naturally I've had to look for a better stylus for mine at home, none of them seem as good -- and it was a Pfanshsteil 4767-DE, inexpensive and no longer available. Don't remember the cartridge, maybe a Shure RXT-4?

 

[Paul McShart]

Thanks guys for the responses, they've helped tremendously.

Yeah I'm not sure as to the capacitance in the cables of my sl1700, but I definitely need a new phono stage (my pioneer is no good at the moment) and will look for something hopefully less than 100pF...maybe ill even take a crack at a diy build if that is more cost effective. Considering the age of my equipment, minus the phono stage, maybe AT carts will be a pain in my setup. Then again, couldn't I just adjust the eq to taste on my pioneer should the capacitance be an issue?

Also, before I take the Grado in for a re-tip, I just bought a protractor and technics alignment tool so hopefully I can rule out alignment as the cause for the high end distortion; also bought a 30x magnifying glass so that will help me determine for sure if it's in need of replacement.

but yeah, im going to wait on it and think about it some more. jrtrent, you really got me interested in the conical styli now! I'll definitely consider the VM510CB.

if you guys know of any phono stages with low capacitance, on top of the ones already mentioned here, I'd greatly appreciate it! I think once I have that part of my system sorted out, the cartridge decision will be easier. Budget for phono stage is 200, but im willing to wait and save if theres a substantial upgrade for around 300.

From there, I think I will either go Grado re-tip or one of AT's 500 series carts

 

[Paul McShart]

The sound you prefer is very subjective, and the right cartridge to achieve that is heavily influenced by the rest of your system, which makes it tough for anyone to tell you which cartridge you'll like better.

In general, nude shank styli transfer the information from the record better than bonded styli, so either of the upgrades that have mentioned so far should offer some improved clarity. Also in general, the finer shape of the line contact type profiles trace the groove of the LP better and offer better treble detail than broader elliptical or conical tips, but there are other electrical and physical factors involved that effect sound too. I'm not familiar with the custom tip that was mentioned for the Grado, but either the VM95ML or VM540ML should offer excellent performance. Both share the same stylus, but the VM540 has a somewhat better generator that should improve separation. In case it helps, Parts-Express offers a $15 off coupon with code "PREFR1", plus free s/h.

Let us know what you decide and how you make out.
View attachment 2257146

thanks for telling me about the 15 off code! will definitely use if I go the AT route

 

[justjed2]

My SL-1800(pre-MkII) plays nicely with the Ortofon 2M Bronze, and that would be my recommendation. It won't fit the Technics headshell, though, and I use the Ortofon SH-4. The Bronze is not very fussy about set-up, but takes 40-50 hours or so to properly bed-in the suspension. Definitely worth the wait! And, as a bonus, the Blue stylus on the Bronze generator is even better than the already quite good standard 2M Blue.

I also have a Shure/Realistic R47XT(($30ish in 1985), with a JICO hyper-elliptical stylus, that comes across as warmer and more detailed than the 2M Blue, but a bit slower, and not as precise or detailed as the Bronze. Not that that really matters. The point is, the tonearm on your deck, though limited in adjustment capability, is good enough to make more than adequate use of almost any MM cart, and a sizeable number of decent MC carts, as well.

You might look at the Vessel line of cartridges from LPGear, btw. The AT-VM530/540 are also intriguing options, I'm considering the VM530 myself.

Enjoy your search! But don't waste a lot of valuable listening time trying to find something. Almost anything you put on your deck is going to sound at least good, if not excellent.

 

[warrjon]

If you're using the OEM Technics cable it will be low capacitance, I measured mine with an LCR bridge and headshell to RCA was 46pf. I also use RCA Tees that I can plug RCA adapters with custom R and C.

If you are looking to re-tip the Grado Joseph Long does a sterling job, I'm sure other on here will also sing Joseph's praises.

 

[Paul McShart]

My SL-1800(pre-MkII) plays nicely with the Ortofon 2M Bronze, and that would be my recommendation. It won't fit the Technics headshell, though, and I use the Ortofon SH-4. The Bronze is not very fussy about set-up, but takes 40-50 hours or so to properly bed-in the suspension. Definitely worth the wait! And, as a bonus, the Blue stylus on the Bronze generator is even better than the already quite good standard 2M Blue.

I also have a Shure/Realistic R47XT(($30ish in 1985), with a JICO hyper-elliptical stylus, that comes across as warmer and more detailed than the 2M Blue, but a bit slower, and not as precise or detailed as the Bronze. Not that that really matters. The point is, the tonearm on your deck, though limited in adjustment capability, is good enough to make more than adequate use of almost any MM cart, and a sizeable number of decent MC carts, as well.

You might look at the Vessel line of cartridges from LPGear, btw. The AT-VM530/540 are also intriguing options, I'm considering the VM530 myself.

Enjoy your search! But don't waste a lot of valuable listening time trying to find something. Almost anything you put on your deck is going to sound at least good, if not excellent.

Thanks, ill definitely check those out! good to know my tonearm is adequate for many other mm carts, ill try not to worry about it too much and just get a working cart that is decent enough to enjoy the music

 

[Paul McShart]

If you're using the OEM Technics cable it will be low capacitance, I measured mine with an LCR bridge and headshell to RCA was 46pf. I also use RCA Tees that I can plug RCA adapters with custom R and C.

If you are looking to re-tip the Grado Joseph Long does a sterling job, I'm sure other on here will also sing Joseph's praises.

Oh sweet, I was about to measure it myself tomorrow but I guess im good.I'm pretty sure it is original, although I got from a record shop years ago and not fully sure. Do you think you can identify them as oem if I take a pic?

Oh and yes, definitely gonna get it retipped if it needs it. However, I actually got a 30x/60x magnfiying glass today and checked out the diamond. It hoesntly looked fine and still had a pointed tip. Got a cheap microscope thats coming in tomorrow to take picture of it. I did notice a slightly bent cantilever towards the right. Idk if this is acceptable to use as a stylus but I am getting distortion on the highs sometimes. I'm guessing it either needs to be bent back to the middle (if this is even possible) or realign the cart with my protractor but aligning it to the cantilever instead.

Here are some pics of the cantilever, tho it might be hard to tell that its bent through this pics:

 

[Paul McShart]

here are the rca plugs, I'd measure the capacitance rn if I could but dont have a multimeter thats working at the moment. They feel robust and the connectors are very tight, so I'm thinking they are good quality.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Oh sweet, I was about to measure it myself tomorrow but I guess im good.I'm pretty sure it is original, although I got from a record shop years ago and not fully sure. Do you think you can identify them as oem if I take a pic?

Oh and yes, definitely gonna get it retipped if it needs it. However, I actually got a 30x/60x magnfiying glass today and checked out the diamond. It hoesntly looked fine and still had a pointed tip. Got a cheap microscope thats coming in tomorrow to take picture of it. I did notice a slightly bent cantilever towards the right. Idk if this is acceptable to use as a stylus but I am getting distortion on the highs sometimes. I'm guessing it either needs to be bent back to the middle (if this is even possible) or realign the cart with my protractor but aligning it to the cantilever instead.

Here are some pics of the cantilever, tho it might be hard to tell that its bent through this pics:

first, cantilever looks fine to me

second, you need special lighting plus know what to look for to see stylus wear, there are plenty of threads here on the subject

third, micro line stylus are more sensitive to SRA, so going that route setup will be more critical.

now, to the cartridge at hand, now that you have an alignment protractor coming you can confirm whether it's overhang is correct. Once this is set realise adjusting VTA forward from perpendicular will give a more detailed response, more tail down the response will be more laid back, adjust to taste.

if you decide to retip with Joseph I highly recommend his work, he retipped my Denon DL301 and it really sings. If going to replace the stylus from Grado the 8MZ isn't the huge improvement over the Blue it's made out to be. I have the Blue with an 8MZ, also a G+1 I've used the 8MZ in, it's no match for the entry level Grado Platinum wood body. If planning to go this route save your money and purchase the Blue or Green stylus.

 

[Paul McShart]

for sure, ill look out for the blue and green if going the Grado route, though I'll probably go with Joseph as, like you said, many ppl like his work a lot and the price seems right for a nude elliptical.

Also that's good news about the cantilever. In person, you can definitely see a slight dent on the right side towards the middle with 30x magnification and a very very slight tilt to the right, but I think these photos somewhat represent that. Even if you couldn't see that in the photos, based on what I said, would this even be an issue?

yeah I'll definitely research more about how to see a worn out stylus under the microscope, got one coming in tomorrow that should zoom in even more...hopefully can take pictures to share with y'all.

Also will let ya'll know if the overhang and alignment is correct for it