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Need help from technicians and engineers

I would agree that the power up timing is likely the primary reason for it being there, considering the 15K ohm and .47uF timing comes out to about 142hz. So it will stabilize slightly quicker than a half AC cycle charge.
I do not believe that your math is correct.
Fc= 1/(2*pi*15E3*4.7e-7)= 1/0.443= 22.6Hz. Perhaps you forgot the 2Pi?
The function, perhaps, is to ensure that the bias network looks like an AC short over the operating frequency range of the amp while maintaining the bias "gain" at DC. Remember that the B-E plus diode combo ensures that the AC voltage gain at the bottom side of the network is essentially 1, so with the top R bypassed the HF gain of the network as a floating element is zero.
 
I do not believe that your math is correct.
Fc= 1/(2*pi*15E3*4.7e-7)= 1/0.443= 22.6Hz. Perhaps you forgot the 2Pi?.
We were discussing how long it would keep bias voltage off during power up. I was figuring charge time, not resonant frequency. Since it was a cap that was going from not charged; to charged on the turn on, I was calculating the simple time constant of 15,000x.00000047=.00705 seconds 1/.0075=141.8 , not the AC frequency of the RC circuit.
So the time it would take to charge is slightly less than .0083 seconds or 1/120 of a second half AC charge cycle. And yes, we could get technical and say that it is only charged to 63.2% of the final voltage, but I was trying to keep things easy to understand.
 
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We were discussing how long it would keep bias voltage off during power up. I was figuring charge time, not resonant frequency. Since it was a cap that was going from not charged; to charged on the turn on, I was calculating the simple time constant of 15,000x.00000047=.00705 seconds 1/.0075=141.8 , not the AC frequency of the RC circuit.
So the time it would take to charge is slightly less than .0083 seconds or 1/120 of a second half AC charge cycle. And yes, we could get technical and say that it is only charged to 62.3% of the final voltage, but I was trying to keep things easy to understand.

The point is that the assessment that this a power supply charge up circuit seems to make little sense. Why would delaying the full turn on of the output stage for a few ms be anything that would matter? How fast is the charge up time on the supplies, for example? Significantly less than 7ms?
Your reasoning seems to be a bit of a stretch. As someone who has actually designed these types of circuit and has used this very approach to do exactly what I have described with vbe multipliers, I would suggest that an alternative idea makes more sense...
Oh, and by the way it's not "resonant frequency", for that you'd need an LC or a negative resistance element or something besides just an R and a C.. it's effectively a "low pass cutoff frequency" although there is in fact a pole and zero involved in the transfer function. Yes, something in this will be resonant at some point, but this is not that.
Think of the operation this way. The resistor string between the collector of the bias transistor and the bottom of the diode (2vbe in total) consists of a 15k at the top and a c. 15k at the bottom (consisting of two resistors- one fixed, one variable) with the center connected to the base of the bias BJT. This provides roughly a 4vbe voltage across the bias string as it has a voltage gain of c.2. Just as you want.
After all, if you have 2vbe across the bottom resistor you must also have 2vbe across the top resistor (assuming zero base current for the BJT) giving a gain of 2.
The signal current is delivered through the collector of the transistor below and is applied into the load resistor above. Any change in the current- such as when a signal is amplified, results in a change in the vbe of the bias devices, this in turn is amplified by the bias circuit gain.
However, you don't want the operational AC voltage to be different at either side of the bias string as that changes the transfer function for one half versus the other, which is exactly what you do not want in an output stage as that causes crossover distortion, which is what you are trying to eliminate, so you want the bias string to be unity gain not x2 gain within the bandwidth of the amplifier. Hence the cap. It changes the gain at HF by shorting out the resistor to ac signals, and making the bias stage have unity gain. As a result the top and bottom of the bias network have the same ac potential. (note: well, not actually- the top would track the IR drop of the top load resistor, the bottom would experience a small extra delta V- but that's OK. If the stage was a x2 the top half would experience the expected drop minus this same delta V, and the bottom it plus a delta v- which is not good).
This ensures that both complementary halves of the output stage see the same driving AC potential but with the desired DC shift needed for the correct biasing of the output devices into the proper class AB region.
This is an alternative to sticking a cap right across the bias circuit, and in my opinion a good one as it avoids the actual resonance problems that can be caused due to the possible inductive behavior of the bias generator caused by the rise of "re" of the bias devices at very HF- which could cause a low loss LC parallel network to be formed at very HF. This could be a very bad thing to have.
You can add a damping resistor to take care of this, but why bother?
There may be other pathologies associated with that approach, ones that don't immediately spring to mind.
 
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Ok, I meant 3dB down, not resonant frequency. If you read what I had originally posted, I was describing it as exactly what you are and is not as common as the cap across CE. It was someone else's suggestion that it was to delay bias turn-on. And when I looked at it that way, it does delay the bias to turn on until the voltage is above the EB junction voltage. So who could say the original engineer didn't do it on purpose to delay the thump that bootstrap amps can make on power up, or it could be coincidence that it worked out that way along with the low roll-off. And I thought that it being near a half AC cycle lead some evidence to this. Just exploring ideas. I know what the typical use is for a bias circuit and have also done simulation and real world testing on those circuits.
 
I would also like to add that in amplifiers with a constant current VA stage, that this cap can often be eliminated entirely with no ill effects. And in many amplifiers it is a much smaller capacity. On a constant current source VA, the bias voltage should track almost linearly, and the small bypass caps are eliminated or are there just to make up for the delay the transistor has from it's own junction capacitance. Because as stated, any delay would cause a rise in voltage and therefor a rise in bias current through the outputs and everything before them.
 
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I would also like to add that in amplifiers with a constant current VA stage, that this cap can often be eliminated entirely with no ill effects. And in many amplifiers it is a much smaller capacity. On a constant current source VA, the bias voltage should track almost linearly, and the small bypass caps are eliminated or are there just to make up for the delay the transistor has from it's own junction capacitance. Because as stated, any delay would cause a rise in voltage and therefor a rise in bias current through the outputs and everything before them.

Just so you know. I was an analog IC designer for many years- in fact a Senior Design Fellow at a company you are possibly familiar with- Analog devices (ADI). Amongst many areas I was involved in was the design of high performance opamps, and amongst them were a number of complementary bipolar designs. In my life before ADI I designed, in my free time, audio power amps and preamps in various technologies for fun, and occasionally for profit. I don't intend to delve into the intricacies of gain stage design- that would take a book, and is really not relevant to the discussion at hand which is specific to the particular section of the bias scheme employed in this amplifier and not a general discourse on bias techniques.
 
Ok, I meant 3dB down, not resonant frequency. If you read what I had originally posted, I was describing it as exactly what you are and is not as common as the cap across CE. It was someone else's suggestion that it was to delay bias turn-on. And when I looked at it that way, it does delay the bias to turn on until the voltage is above the EB junction voltage. So who could say the original engineer didn't do it on purpose to delay the thump that bootstrap amps can make on power up, or it could be coincidence that it worked out that way along with the low roll-off. And I thought that it being near a half AC cycle lead some evidence to this. Just exploring ideas. I know what the typical use is for a bias circuit and have also done simulation and real world testing on those circuits.
By the way, the 15k is not the R that necessarily sets the charging time of the cap. That is set by the current flow to the resistors between the BJT base and the bottom of the bias network and the base current of the BJT, so the available charging current is about 1.4/15k or about 100uA (plus the unknown base current).
 
Ok, I meant 3dB down, not resonant frequency. If you read what I had originally posted, I was describing it as exactly what you are and is not as common as the cap across CE. It was someone else's suggestion that it was to delay bias turn-on. And when I looked at it that way, it does delay the bias to turn on until the voltage is above the EB junction voltage. So who could say the original engineer didn't do it on purpose to delay the thump that bootstrap amps can make on power up, or it could be coincidence that it worked out that way along with the low roll-off. And I thought that it being near a half AC cycle lead some evidence to this. Just exploring ideas. I know what the typical use is for a bias circuit and have also done simulation and real world testing on those circuits.
OK, but I still don't understand why delaying the "thump" for a few ms matters. The thump, when it occurs, is generally due to the stabilization of the DC output. The DC output is defined by having the DC gain unity and the AC gain whatever is the design goal. This is done as, unlike precision opamps, discrete amps generally have high DC offsets.
In this case the LF -3dB point is set by a 110 ohm R and a 470uF cap, at about 3Hz. this is also a TC of about 0.5s.
So please explain again to me why delaying the establishment of the optimal output stage bias point by a few ms matters a whit.
 
Just so you know. I was an analog IC designer for many years- in fact a Senior Design Fellow at a company you are possibly familiar with- Analog devices (ADI). Amongst many areas I was involved in was the design of high performance opamps, and amongst them were a number of complementary bipolar designs. In my life before ADI I designed, in my free time, audio power amps and preamps in various technologies for fun, and occasionally for profit. I don't intend to delve into the intricacies of gain stage design- that would take a book, and is really not relevant to the discussion at hand which is specific to the particular section of the bias scheme employed in this amplifier and not a general discourse on bias techniques.
Just so you know, I don't care. You tell me that as well as list the books you have about every time I cross paths with you. You must be a real treat to be around.


And again, I was only speculating based off of what other people were discussing in this thread, I didn't say for sure it was to delay bias. But it does delay bias even if not on purpose or whether you want to admit it or not, and it could also have the benefit of delaying it until the other circuits stabilize, so that the bootstrap can't create a large bias spike before everything else is charged up. Not sure why you are bringing up the low freq roll-off of the negative feedback, do you really think I wasn't aware of that either?. Shhhsh enough already. And yes I know there is more than the 15k to factor in for the timing constant, I'm just keeping things simple to avoid coming off like a know it all who nit picks everything even if it isn't directly related to the post. And mentioning a constant current VA is relevant because the lack of change in current means the voltage in those resistors won't change like you had previously described in this circuit, seems pretty on topic to me. I was indicating that the bias circuit itself isn't the reason for the voltage to vary and that junction capacitance is the primary reason for those caps. So by comparison, this bootstrap design with resistors R111,112 allows for current fluctuation as any resistor current based VA does.

I think the OP has gotten the information they were looking for and getting in another tedious "discussion" with you is an embarrassment.
 
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Just so you know, I don't care. You tell me that as well as list the books you have about every time I cross paths with you. You must be a real treat to be around.


And again, I was only speculating based off of what other people were discussing in this thread, I didn't say for sure it was to delay bias. But it does delay bias even if not on purpose or whether you want to admit it or not, and it could also have the benefit of delaying it until the other circuits stabilize, so that the bootstrap can't create a large bias spike before everything else is charged up. Not sure why you are bringing up the low freq roll-off of the negative feedback, do you really think I wasn't aware of that either?. Shhhsh enough already. And yes I know there is more than the 15k to factor in for the timing constant, I'm just keeping things simple to avoid coming off like a know it all who nit picks everything even if it isn't directly related to the post. And mentioning a constant current VA is relevant because the lack of change in current means the voltage in those resistors won't change like you had previously described in this circuit, seems pretty on topic to me. I was indicating that the bias circuit itself isn't the reason for the voltage to vary and that junction capacitance is the primary reason for those caps. So by comparison, this bootstrap design with resistors R111,112 allows for current fluctuation as any resistor current based VA does.

I think the OP has gotten the information they were looking for and getting in another tedious "discussion" with you is an embarrassment.

Because the "low frequency roll off" is what sets the response characteristics of the loop that corrects for DC errors at the amp output terminal- i.e. what causes the thump.
As far as the OP is concerned- I believe that I have actually answered his question with more accuracy and detail than any of the efforts previously.
But it seems, as usual, that accuracy and detail is not necessarily appreciated by everyone.
Oh, and there is a class of AK patrons that find my answers and insights enlightening, so I will just continue doing what I do- just as they have requested.
 
You didn't give answers. You quoted me directly and then proceeded to tell me things I already know in typical fashion. You try to make an 'I'm right and you're wrong' troll fight, when I'm saying both of our descriptions were true and aspects of how that circuit works. Good day sir.
 
And yes, you are correct. The control for the thump is the DC feedback and how long it takes to charge. I should have explained that. I just thought if the timing of the bootstrap occurred at the wrong time that it could cause a sort of positive feedback through the bootstrap and make the initial voltage spike that the feedback would have to deal with, higher in amplitude. But my main thinking was bias spike in relation to the original discussion. I thought something could be timed wrong because of the abnormally high thump I have noticed from those designs. If all things turned on at the same time/rate, there would not be a thump or a need to wait for the DC blocking feedback to charge. That's why I said I wanted to play around with some caps on a distortion analyzer. And to test things to see what's really happening there.
 
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Knock it off two! I read nothing from @wyn palmer that you @Racingh11 surmise as talking down to you. If you don't get along in your minds just keep the threads factual. Another thing is threads 'morph' on a.k. and I see that, just don't allow emotions to creep in.

What you two don't understand is you could both start a well needed thread on Bias circuitry and related how they work down to the component level.
 
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Knock it off two! I read nothing from @wyn palmer that you @Racingh11 surmise as talking down to you. If you don't get along in your minds just keep the threads factual. Another thing is threads 'morph' on a.k. and I see that, just don't allow emotions to creep in.

What you two don't understand is you could both start a well needed thread on Bias circuitry and related how they work down to the component level.
Then it also wouldn't be talking down to you if I publicly told you how to tie your shoes every time we meet, because that's what he does. There is nothing explained in this thread that is new to me but yet I'm quoted out of everyone here and then explained the basics to. Then I get to hear the list of accomplishments and usually the library with it. Not the first time, I remember, he doesn't. I come on this site to help people, not to defend myself from people imposing that I know nothing and they are the only one to ever design an amp. There wasn't much said in this thread that isn't true, but it is proposed as one or the other, it's both. I'm not wasting more time on it. And I'm not emotional about it, truth is still true whether people like it or not. Peace
 
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