Need Opinions - Sansui SP-2000 Replacement Woofer

[mootej]

I need some opinions. Setting up the old stereo, I realized I needed some speakers. So I get a pair of Sansui SP-2000’s on CL to go with the old Marantz 2215B from college and the Pioneer PL-112D turntable that my wife brought to the marriage some 35 years ago.



It sounded so good to listen to vinyl again that I picked up another set of Sansui’s, non-working for a bargain price.


The second set of speakers is actually functional but is missing one of the W-2000 12” woofers and the other one doesn’t work. I throw in a couple of old Jensen P12RC’s that I happened to have and everything works. For some old jukebox speakers, they work, but don’t sound too good. Not a surprise but everything is functional.


I take a look at the non-working W-2000 and a pretty obvious problem, the tinsel wires are broken off at the speaker cone but the voice coil tests fine. I can probably solder it without much trouble.



I also scour the net, looking for another W-2000 to replace the missing one. Only one on ebay and it needs a recone :



I’ll admit, I feel the SP-2000’s are a little lacking in bass, at least in my place. So here’s the quandary. What do I do?


1. Replace the tinsel wires on the W-2000 (looks like a fairly easy fix) and try to (eventually) find a matching partner, keeping everything true to the original or

2. Source some new woofers, maybe with a little more output bu not staying with vintage or

3. Find a suitable replacement or pair of replacement speakers a lot like the originals or maybe a close but giving me a little more bass.

For #1, I’ve searched ebay, only one W-2000 available with a tear in the cone and doing a recone will probably be problematic. I checked Oaktree and the last one they sold was a year ago. And I’m impatient.

For #2, I have no idea where to start.

For #3, the original speaker is a Japanese made 12” smooth cone 8-ohm, 20W with a massively huge alnico magnet.


Here were some speakers that looked really close, maybe even the same?


Pioneer 30-25F-2 from CS-77:


Trio T12-30V from Kenwood KL-440:


A vintage Becker?


Pioneer 30-63 from ???


Sansui W-200


Sansui 02-136

 

[mootej]

Or a couple more...

Pioneer PW-382-A-5 from CS-99 (aluminum basket)


Or My Favorite, Trio T10-0005-05 (orange!)

 

[goodolpg]

Keep checking ebay, set up an alert on there as well. Do any other Sansui speakers use the same woofer, if yes look for those as well.
Someone posted that same woofer ( a good one, not the one that needs a cone) at least 3 times in the last month on ebay. Looks like it didn't sell and he gave up for now. Might show back up, might not.
A COMPETENT speaker repair shop should be able to repair the broken tinsel wires if you don't want to do it. I've heard stories of DIY'ers burning holes in cones attempting that repair.

 

[mootej]

Hey thanks, I will set up an alert, one is sure to come up eventually. Maybe even two, if I blunder on the soldering. I had some practice with a few recones. Leaded solder rules...mad as a hatter, too.

Still, don't you think some of those other-branded speakers look like the same ones? Especially the Kenwood Trio speakers and the Pioneer labeled "Japan" I know Jensen and Celestion used to make speakers for lots of folks, maybe the Japanese market in the late 60's and 70's was the same.

 

[FluxT]

I think Coral was a common OEM manufacturer for Sansui, and probably did stuff for Akai/Pioneer/Kenwood/etc. They all have very similar-looking drivers, layouts, and designs, that’s for sure. There’s also whispers about JBL being involved with the SP2500/3500 line, since Sansui was JBL’s Japanese distributor back then.

 

[goodolpg]

Hey thanks, I will set up an alert, one is sure to come up eventually. Maybe even two, if I blunder on the soldering. I had some practice with a few recones. Leaded solder rules...mad as a hatter, too.

Still, don't you think some of those other-branded speakers look like the same ones? Especially the Kenwood Trio speakers and the Pioneer labeled "Japan" I know Jensen and Celestion used to make speakers for lots of folks, maybe the Japanese market in the late 60's and 70's was the same.

I'll let someone more knowledgeable address if any of those would be suitable replacements.
Some speakers are worth using original parts, to keep the original voicing and sound. I don't know if the SP-2000 are among those.
Any of those that will fit the opening will work as far as making sound/noise, just how good is the question.

 

[mootej]

Got the broken speaker tinsel wires above fixed. Here's how:
- took the tiniest drill I had (#60, <3/64") in a dremel and carefully drilled out the eyelets from the front of the speaker. Use sharp drill bits! Watch out, drills aimed at the speaker cone! Use two hands!
- opened up the holes using 2 or 3 bits on the way up to #51 (a little under 1/16")

Drilled eyelets:


- desoldered the tinsel wire from the terminal end, took it out and tinned about 3/32" of the broken end
- pushed the tinned end of the wire through the hole in the eyelet
- resoldered to the eyelet from the front of the speaker, really, really quick with about 550F tip temperature and then trimmed the extra wire

- resoldered the terminal end, done!


So oops, all fixed, resistance measures about 30 ohms, way too high! Tracked it down to bad tinsel wire. OK, guess I now know why they were blown. Repeated the whole process and used new tinsel wire I happened to have laying around from:
https://www.tedweber.com/tinsel-large

Done and back in place:


Still to do:
- used a little dot of Ambroid glue to re-touch the front end of the eyelet. The stuff is basically nitrocellulose in solvent, great for speaker repairs.


Magic! It works and sounds stellar. Now to figure out what to do for the missing woofer.

 

[mootej]

I think Coral was a common OEM manufacturer for Sansui, and probably did stuff for Akai/Pioneer/Kenwood/etc. They all have very similar-looking drivers, layouts, and designs, that’s for sure. There’s also whispers about JBL being involved with the SP2500/3500 line, since Sansui was JBL’s Japanese distributor back then.

Coral, that's a great lead, thanks.

 

[mootej]

Still wish I could find a "somewhat" vintage set of woofers that would give me a little more bass. I am embarrassingly using the loudness button and two clicks up on the bass control for everything. Well, got everything coming for a recap. Maybe that will help. Marantz recap too. Guess I will be doing a lot of soldering this weekend...

 

[FluxT]

Hold your horses now! Recapping is ALWAYS a good idea, but it won’t solve your bass problems. Sansui speakers weren’t known for their deep heavy bass. They didn’t have as good of an understanding about driver/cabinet matching or port sizes back then as we do today, and there wasn’t a whole lot of heavy subsonic action going on in most ‘60s music. Most music was mixed for AM radios, or to not upset the crappy tonearms of most console changers, so I doubt there wasn’t much demand for speakers that put out much of anything below 60Hz.

That being said, check the free movement of those woofers. My SP2500’s reached comfortably down into the 40s or 50s, but only after I refreshed the woofer surrounds. They were HORRENDOUSLY stiff when I got them, and rolled off around 80Hz. Same thing happens to old JBL’s of the period. What you do is you get a small artist brush and brush a very light coat of DOT3 (yes, brake fluid!) on the surrounds, and let them sit overnight. The difference will literally be night and day. However, the 2000’s woofer looks pretty different from the 2500’s, so check this carefully before doing anything. If the woofer cones feel stiff and you’ve got to put in a mild effort to push them all the way in, then they need to be treated.

If they are already pretty flexible, or you don’t feel comfortable doing that, I’d play around with room placement. Floors and corners will naturally amplify bass response, while the middle of the room/wall will decrease it. Pretty typical stuff for any speaker. Some like to be up high, others down low, some in corners, others dead center of the room, some tied in, others facing dead ahead, and even a few that face the wall. The first few weeks after getting a new pair of speakers usually involves toying around with different room placements.

If all of that doesn’t work out, then get thee another set of speakers entirely. However, there’s a caveat here. There’s an ancient rule in speaker design known as Hoffman’s Iron Law. Bass extension, Cabinet size, and Efficiency: Pick 2. Sansui opted to sacrifice low bass extension for wringing the absolute most out of every watt in a medium-sized (it’s no “bookshelf” speaker, but it’s hardly gargantuan) enclosure. Your SP2000’s will probably put out somewhere between 94-98dB with just 1 watt of power. That’s loud as hell. To wring 3 more decibels out of it, you have to double the power (and half the power for 3 fewer decibles). Your Marantz is just cruising with these things, even if you’re rocking the hell out, and ears will be ringing and cops will be called by the time it starts breaking a sweat. A more bass-heavy speaker will require much more juice at the same listening level, which makes the amp more likely to clip if you’re not careful. An amplifier clipping can pose a threat to even the most high-powered speakers, as the waveform becomes square and overloads the tweeters. However, you should be fine with anything rated for 90dB at 1 watt/meter or more, maybe a little less if all you’re doing is casual listening in a smaller room. Since we’re talking vintage, I’d keep an eye out for KLH Model Sixes, Bose 301’s, or Pioneer HPM40s. Those are all common vintage speakers that are easy to drive and have nice deep bass. Old-school JBL or Klipsch would also be good. Stay clear of Advents or Acoustic Research, because they tend to be power-hungry. Marantz stuff has a huge collector following, so I reckon if you google “Marantz 2215 speakers”, you’ll find some Marantz devotee mentioning a pair of speakers that sounds nice with that receiver.

 

[mootej]

FluxT, thanks for the info. I saw the DOT3 trick, OK so 'fess up, I'm a chemist, actually the go-to brake fluid guy in the lab. Great universal solvent that doesn't dry out, plenty of corrosion inhibitors, stuff eats up metal like crazy without them but they don't really disappear with time, only heat. And yes, these speakers are really stiff, including the surrounds. They're cloth, not foam so I should be OK to use the DOT3. I'll re-read some of the threads first. So i'm thinking, if I can get the bass I want with the amp tone controls (loudness + two notches on the bass tone), I could probably get the same thing if I tweeked the caps a little or made some minor adjustments. But you're right, play the tune first, improvise later. I'll experiment with placement this weekend. Into the corners, maybe. Big room, 25x30, not great acoustics. Been avoiding acoustic suspension because of having only 15 watts and these Sansui's are definitely efficient! But I'll bet you're right, placement may take care of a lot of issues.

I also read about installing new foam sealing on the backs and under the drivers and necking down the port some to bring the resonant frequency down 10 or 15Hz.

I did not have to wait long for the replacement woofer, a pair showed up on ebay today, hopefully one is on it's way tomorrow. Still, I wanted to try those orange Trios. Well maybe in a month or three.

So recap first. I have an idea. I have access to an impedance meter that does bode and nyquist plots, full frequency. I think I might try to run all the replacement caps first (Solens, Daytons, Nichicon FG series, etc.) and compare them to the ones I pull just to see if I am spending money well or chasing unicorns. I already replaced the power supply caps in the Marantz, funny it was working fine for 40-odd years, I buy new speakers and it dies with major hum the minute I try to hook them up. I immediately know it one of the power supply caps so I go to the last electronic parts store I know of anywhere that is unbelievably open on Saturday and replace all the caps that they fortunately have all the voltages and capacitances I need on the rack...and I'm back in business. One of the electrolytics (surprisingly not the big one) was bulging out pretty far. I'll probably get flamed but I have never had much belief in power supply caps lending anything to the tone. Ok, maybe an old tube amp with a sagging rectifier or a choke that can't keep up...Anyway, I'm not going to measure those, too late, just the Marantz signal-line caps and the crossover caps.

I was eyeing the Pioneer HPM100's but now I'm going to look at the HPM40's. I probably need to sell something first. Anyway, thanks for the tips. More to come...

 

[mootej]

For the recap, I'm going to continue this here:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/sansui-recap-w-impedance-analyzer.900186/

 

[PROJECT 2501]

I know it's an old thread and you're probably no longer looking for a woofer but I have one. It's not an alnico mag though. It has a ceramic magnet.

 

[GordonW]

View attachment 1738611

Here were some speakers that looked really close, maybe even the same?

(...)

View attachment 1738624
Sansui W-200

That Sansui W-200 woofer is from an SP-200, which is virtually identical to your SP-2000. It should match up fine.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[PROJECT 2501]

That Sansui W-200 woofer is from an SP-200, which is virtually identical to your SP-2000. It should match up fine.

Regards,
Gordon.

Was there a change made from alnico to ceramic woofers ?

 

[mootej]

Hey sorry I missed your reply, yes, old thread, the speakers, all four are now in a quad setup with the Sansui QRX-6500 and back in business after a recap. Not sure how but I ended up finding replacement drivers for everything that was blown. The all-Sansui-except-turntable system sounds great, if not a little trebly, but the floor in the outbuilding is concrete and we didn't build to any golden ratio so I can't really blame the speakers. The latest adventure is repairing a couple of Sansui turntables, but that's another thread.



The bass drivers I have are all alnico, I did not know there were ceramics available, though I prefer alnico, more due to cork sniffing than anything I can actually hear...

 

[PROJECT 2501]

Hey sorry I missed your reply, yes, old thread, the speakers, all four are now in a quad setup with the Sansui QRX-6500 and back in business after a recap. Not sure how but I ended up finding replacement drivers for everything that was blown. The all-Sansui-except-turntable system sounds great, if not a little trebly, but the floor in the outbuilding is concrete and we didn't build to any golden ratio so I can't really blame the speakers. The latest adventure is repairing a couple of Sansui turntables, but that's another thread.

View attachment 2722908

The bass drivers I have are all alnico, I did not know there were ceramics available, though I prefer alnico, more due to cork sniffing than anything I can actually hear...

Well, a ceramic version most definitely does exist. How it compares/differs sonically to it's alnico counterpart remains to be seen
The SP-200 speakers i have must be a later revision or something of that nature because the woofers are original

 

[mootej]

Don't know if you ever saw the database here:
http://akdatabase.com/AKview/albums/userpics/10007/02 Sansui Serial Number Report.pdf

Interesting, these models look almost concurrent...

 

[PROJECT 2501]

Hey sorry I missed your reply, yes, old thread, the speakers, all four are now in a quad setup with the Sansui QRX-6500 and back in business after a recap. Not sure how but I ended up finding replacement drivers for everything that was blown. The all-Sansui-except-turntable system sounds great, if not a little trebly, but the floor in the outbuilding is concrete and we didn't build to any golden ratio so I can't really blame the speakers. The latest adventure is repairing a couple of Sansui turntables, but that's another thread.

View attachment 2722908

The bass drivers I have are all alnico, I did not know there were ceramics available, though I prefer alnico, more due to cork sniffing than anything I can actually hear...

Do you at least have heavy rugs stretched across the concrete floors?

 

[mootej]

Do you at least have heavy rugs stretched across the concrete floors?

Well, not really, maybe some day. I have a golf sim out there so there is a screen and a mat. I'm waiting till my wife forgets about the current cost of everything to go wall to wall but that may be a while!