Need some help assembling my first system....

[goraman]

Manley Labs Stingray and Fortes.

 

[specialidiot]

Manley Labs Stingray and Fortes.

yeah that would be nice, he'll need a phono stage though, right?

 

[Alexdad54]

Hi guys,
thanks for all the info. Re the Cornwalls, quote, "Crossovers and tweeters were recently updated and upgraded with new Bob Crites crossovers and tweeters. Cabinets are stained birch solid plywood,not MDF. 1984 vintage $1000 obo".

There are also a pair of Klispch Heresy III's and Totem Arro's in the same price point available.

I have to say, I'm leaning very far over to the MMG side as they are $550 with a 60 day moneyback guarantee and seem to offer a similar quality. I gguess I haven't been very clear in my music needs, I definitely am looking for good bass (love Familyman Barrett's bass in the Wailers) but I also listen to a lot of JJ Cale, Sonny Landreth, Pink Floyd, Sanatana, World and Roxy Music. My wife wants to listen to her Latin music as well and then there is the WAF furniture factor.......For the price of the Cornies or the two others, I can get the MMG's and a decent sub.

I've been looking and there seem to be two schools of thought re powering the speakers, tube or SS, a pair of Outlaw 2200 mono blocks or a good integrated tube amp...any suggestions?
Would the Jolida''s that RickB mentions do the trick?
BTW Rick, you're right, my cd player is the RCD-971. It's my holding player until I can score a used Ah Njoe Tjoeb.
I know the Dual 1218 is no top end vinyl but neither is the state of my record collection! It's still an upgrade though from my old Dual 1009....courtesy of fixmydual.com! (Am I allowed to give it a plug?)....

 

[RickB]

Hi guys,
thanks for all the info. Re the Cornwalls, quote, "Crossovers and tweeters were recently updated and upgraded with new Bob Crites crossovers and tweeters. Cabinets are stained birch solid plywood,not MDF. 1984 vintage $1000 obo".

There are also a pair of Klispch Heresy III's and Totem Arro's in the same price point available.

I have to say, I'm leaning very far over to the MMG side as they are $550 with a 60 day moneyback guarantee and seem to offer a similar
quality. I gguess I haven't been very clear in my music needs, I definitely am looking for good bass (love Familyman Barrett's bass in the Wailers) but I also listen to a lot of JJ Cale, Sonny Landreth, Pink Floyd, Sanatana, World and Roxy Music. My wife wants to listen to her
Latin music as well and then there is the WAF furniture factor.......For the price of the Cornies or the two others, I can get the MMG's and a decent sub.

The MMG's are agile speakers and mating with a sub takes patience and a good sub, or all you are likely to get is way too much boom...and that gets real old real quick...and, it has been my experience that Maggies work better with stereo subs rather than just one, too...

Or, you could look into a set of MG1.6QR's...you might not even want a sub then....

Either way with the MMG's, you might find that the bass of the Maggies is different and would be sufficient for you....I have found that the better my setup became, the less I needed prodigious bass and having all of the elements of the music come through clearly was more important than that thump.

In fact, I have stereo subs powered by an Adcom GFA555II that I rarely turn on...mostly just for action movies, in fact....and maybe not even then...but, with all dipolar speakers setup is king...garbage in also equals garbage out...

If you do get real interested in the Maggies and decide to try a pair then I would say live with them for a while, optimize your system around them, and then add subs as a last resort...get the basics right before you embellish...

For a lot of input from other Magneplanar owners, you can also check out the Planar Speaker Asylum at Audio Asylum..

The modded Cornwalls would probably be pretty good, but like the Heresy IIIs' you'd be getting a more dramatic vs. refined presentation in comparison to the Magneplanars....

The fellow I work for on Saturdays used to be a Totem dealer...and after living with Arros, Staffs, Hawks, and Forrests my opinion is that the sum of the parts don't add up to the expense of the speakers...in other words, there's other speakers I would much rather have at their price
points...plus, the Arros are tiny and sound it...they aren't bad, but you can build as good, or even better, sounding speakers with kits for less than half the price of the used ones you are looking at...their little 4" woofers just do not move enough air on their own...interesting curiosities and suited for some applications, especially small apartments where too much bass would aggravate neighbors....

I've been looking and there seem to be two schools of thought re powering the speakers, tube or SS, a pair of Outlaw 2200 mono blocks or a good integrated tube amp...any suggestions?

Would the Jolida''s that RickB mentions do the trick?

The best sound I have heard from Magneplanars was when we had a set of 1.6QR's hooked up to a pair of Spectron Musician III amplifiers, with a ModWright SWL 9.0SE preamp and an EMM Labs SACD player....I also liked mine with my Audible Illusions tube pre and a Bryston 4BSST2 that I had here for a couple of weeks, and usually run mine with "just" a Bryston 2B and my preamp...in my 12' X 14' den the smallest Bryston does a great job for me...and sounds way better than the Adcom 555II....

The Jolida 1701RC hybrid would have enough power, 100WPC and has a tubed preamp/driver section in it

...if you went all tube the Jolida 801A at 70WPC:

or the JD1000RC at 150 WPC would really do it:

BTW Rick, you're right, my cd player is the RCD-971. It's my holding
player until I can score a used Ah Njoe Tjoeb.

Well, I hate to sound like a shill for Jolida, but the JD100A CD player is one I would take before the Tjoeb...two of my best friends have them and they are great...instead of the two opamps in the Tjoeb, there are none in the Jolida, the output stage is pure tube...why tack tubes on the output when tubes will do the job all the way through?

In fact, one of them had the CD player that the Tjoeb is based on with a high end external DAC....his wife gave him the Jolida for Christmas year before last...even before rolling tubes or interconnects he found the sound was so superior that his previous CD player was given to one of his kids and the DAC hooked up to the DVD player for video....

The Tjoeb's construction is a lot lighter than the Jolida's attesting to it's origins as a consumer unit that has just been modified vs. the Jolida's purpose built, heavier duty layout.

I know the Dual 1218 is no top end vinyl but neither is the state of my
record collection! It's still an upgrade though from my old Dual
1009....courtesy of fixmydual.com! (Am I allowed to give it a
plug?)....

Well, good! You had it fixed by one of the best Dual experts around...but...it's still just a Dual...I know I am going to catch flack for that but that's the way it goes...I like mine, but it is what it is...something in my Ham Shack/Computer room system, not in the main or secondary ones...

Don't sell your old records short, you would be surprised at what a good turntable/arm combo with an advanced stylus profile can dig out of the grooves....

Plus, once you start hearing more into the music you may find that there are more things out there to like...the whole world of cheap, used vinyl has so many things to offer...things that once upon a time I would never have listened to...especially a lot of the Latin music your wife likes...heck, I've bought a lot of it just to hear the little chingaderas buried down in the mix that just came through as a mushy noise on lesser tables...yep, even accordion and harmonica music! It was all the subtle little things coming through that made every kind of music way more interesting to listen to for me.

As my system got better, my musical tastes started diversifying, too...and, the cheap, 99 cent albums from Half Price Books were my gateway into so much more than I had ever known before...there were times when I bought so many of them that they would just look at the stack and throw out some ridiculously low price that I just had to go ahead and buy them....now, I've got thousands....

In fact, I would give up my subs way before I gave up my VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine!

Now, these are just my opinions from what I have heard and played with, others may have different opinions...my opinions are mine and mine alone, and if they are wrong headed or persnickety in any way than that's just me...so, take this info for what it is, just more data to make your final selections....

Good luck on this journey!!!

 

[grillebilly]

I envy you having 3 large to spend on a rig....you will end up with some great sounding gear.
The only suggestion I can make is listen to the speakers you are considering. For me, the biggest bang for the buck, and the biggest difference in sound quality. Also, some like a "big" sound that only horns will give you, and other folks like a more neutral sound a monitor type speaker gives. Everyone raves about Totem, so give them a listen. Some great suggestions so far, you should have a ball picking something out. :drool:
Oh, next to speakers a tt cartridge made the biggest difference to my systems. We have some real knowledgeable folks here to help you with that. :yes:

 

[BrocLuno]

Sorry, but I'd be looking at A/D/S L-8xx through L-12xx series speakers, bigger Infinity RS like 6000 and above or the like. They will deliver on the tunes you listen to, may be able to get around the sub issue? They might need re-foam, but that's no big deal. Big Boston Acoustics might do it too? Point is, look at what's available and select best from that herd.

The Yamaha separates are good, other choices along the same lines would be older Mitsubishi pre and amp from the Da series and a long laundry list of others. Again, what's out there and what can you score within your budget.

Use Google and type in model numbers followed by craigslist. You might get a hit a few towns away that won't show up you regional search, etc. Do you need tape deck management? How about turntable/cartridge upgrades to come?

 

[Alexdad54]

Again,
thanks to all for the info, much appreciated!
Ok, I've been enjoying two conversations at the same time, one here and one on Steve Hoffman forums, mostly with Barrry Diamant, which blew me away! I think I have the speakers narrowed down to two (although this may change, as I am having a conversation soon with a local vintage audio expert).

Everyone supports the MMG as Option #1 but Option #2 is still open to debate: either the MA RS6 or Heresy III's . I have also had recommended Dynaco A-25;s the original Large Advent (I can get a pair near here for $100, not restored I suspect).

The MMG offer the 60-day trial which is good for the WAF patience aspect and I will call them soon. I can't go bigger as the room isn't big enough. I am going to a local store to audition the 1.6QR' on Friday. That's Part One narrowed down somewhat.

Part two: the amp - the Jolida's are reasonable (even to including the JD9A and the Cd player) and is available at reasonable prices. But RickB, you also mention a Bryston, which is better for the MMG, a Jolida 1501P or a Bryston?

I can also get a Marantz 1060 (to act as a pre) and a McIntosh MC2200 amp for similar prices, any thoughts?

I will confess that this is ALL based on reading and asking questions, not on auditioning as I don't have the option readily available.

Here's another element - Barry Diamant, who favors the MMG, suggests two Outlaw 2250's running the speakers instead of a separate amp and no pre until the speakers burn in (400 hours or so).

And then there's NAD...
Re the Dual, I know it's only a beginning...I have it mated to a Shure M97xE that I got on Amazon for about $45....it'll do until I get everything settled in and adjusted then it's TT Time!

thanks again to all and I look forward to your ideas.
cheers.
D

 

[80sKid]

In your shoes, I would pair an NAD integrated amplifier (C372, C375BEE) with the best Paradigm speakers you can afford.

I obviously can't guarantee that Paradigms will be your bag. But they make great speakers that suit the genres you like, plus they give tremendous value for money. So I say they absolutely must be auditioned.

But your speaker options are truly limitless and I strongly feel you should spend more than $1000 on them.

Definitely get out there are audition as many speakers as possible.

 

[RickB]

Let's see, the current Bryston B100SST would have enough power, but it starts at $2995....so, unless you are willing to buy into a higher bracket then the Jolida looks like it fits your budget...that is, if you are looking at new units....

Bryston also has an incredible warranty.....

But, to get it you gotta buy it new...or have the original bill of sale from the original purchaser....

Even the new 2B-SST2 lists for nearly the same price as the preamp....

So, if you are on a budget, you know what you need to do....

There's also the Creek 5350SE that lists around $1500 that I would look at before looking at anything from NAD, it has a nice MM phono stage card for around $100, and a nice MC stage for $120 or so, this integrated got a Stereophile Class A rating...excellent, excellent build quality, too.

From the Stereophile article on the 5350SE: "The Creek 5350SE is the finest $1500 integrated amplifier I've ever heard, but I'll say more than that: If you're considering spending $10,000 on a stereo and have allocated $3000 to a separate preamp and power amp, you might want to consider spending $1500 on the Creek 5350SE and allocating the leftover cash elsewhere. It's that good. Mike Creek, you revolutionary, you."

I know that some have suggested Craigslist...well, here in my neck of the woods there isn't squat on CL...maybe one or two interesting things every couple of weeks, but way too many Iplod/Iphone/Nintendo/TruckSpeakers...in other words, junk....

It's really hard to recommend things that will sound great together, but I always recommend buying as high a quality piece that you can in the beginning rather than buying over and over again...sure, it's fun to try all kinds of things, different gear, but it can end up being more costly in the long run....

But, when it comes to older gear, like the Marantz and Mac you mentioned, both are over a quarter of a century old....and after having had a few older pieces of Marantz gear, like the 1060, I really can not recommend them as a preamp, they just aren't that good in comparison to more modern and competent gear (I know I'm gonna get flamed by the Marantz fanboys for that, oh well BFD) but a 33 year old piece of gear like the 1060 just doesn't sound that good...I know, I have had them...and, it's not just the amp but especially the preamp...I'd rather have a bottom of the line Adcom GFP555, preamp, or even one of their cheap tuner/preamp combos, than use the antiquated preamp section of the 1060 in anything I would want to listen to for any time at all....

I can't really say much on the old McIntosh solid state amps, I just haven't had much experience with them...but, I can only imagine that if you put the soggy signal from the 1060 thru it....well, GIGO is what comes to mind....

Speakers are important.....but, once you reach a decent quality level, like even the little Maggies, everything that comes before them makes a difference, the closer to the beginning, the more the difference...so, sources and preamps are every bit as important as amps and speakers, if not more so!

It's good that you are going to hear the Maggies...that will let you know if their sound is right for you...I can tell you that we had a set of the 1.6QR's hooked up to $14,200 worth of amplifiers, a $3K tubed linestage, and a $10K EMM SACD/CD player with Shunyata and Basis cables while we were waiting on a set of Quad 2805's and the Maggies were not embarrassed by the upstream gear....

And, as far as size goes, I run my 6' tall MG2A's in my 14' wide by 12' deep den quite well....good thing I own my house and SWMBO is just along for the ride...even after 20 years!!!

Good luck and let us know what you find with the Maggie audiotion, I hope they are set up well and you can really see how they sound!

.

 

[goraman]

yeah that would be nice, he'll need a phono stage though, right?

Yes,you would itf you are going to do LP's.
The Sting Ray gives you so much for your money that it's worth the wait to get a phono stage later when $$ allow.I have a StingRay and An Audion Silver Night Class A phono stage,totle majic senergy.
You can't get a better fuller sounding tube amp for the money than the Stingray.
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html
The stingray is a huge upgrade over the Jolita's. The foundation of this amp from the trannys outward need no upgrades.Simply roll tubes all you want but no need to spend $$$$ doing upgrades like the Jolita and in the end it's still just a Jolita.
I have seen people replace the trancformers,caps,sockets ect...costing twice what they paid for the amp and if they want a better amp and try to sell it.
They get very little return.

 

[80sKid]

I would argue that Bryston is outside the budget range. But regardless, I'd like to make a note regarding Bryston warranty: For units manufactured before 2006, you don't need to purchase it new, or provide a proof of purchase.

 

[Alexdad54]

Thanks for the info, well there go my "vintage" ideas....:thumbsdn:
Makes sensethough, I guess. I will be auditioning the Paradigms along with the Maggies at Audiolab on Friday, it'll be interesting to hear the differences. I'm also taking along an extra set of ears (my friend).
Re the amps, the Stingray and Brystons, even used, are in the $2-2.5K range, a big chunk of change. Are they really worth it? The Creek looks like a good option.

While I'm on the subject, anyone have any thoughts pro/con re buying used (on Audiogon)?

 

[RickB]

Yes,you would itf you are going to do LP's.
The Sting Ray gives you so much for your money that it's worth the wait to get a phono stage later when $$ allow.I have a StingRay and An Audion Silver Night Class A phono stage,totle majic senergy.
You can't get a better fuller sounding tube amp for the money than the Stingray.
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html
The stingray is a huge upgrade over the Jolita's. The foundation of this amp from the trannys outward need no upgrades.Simply roll tubes all you want but no need to spend $$$$ doing upgrades like the Jolita and in the end it's still just a Jolita.
I have seen people replace the trancformers,caps,sockets ect...costing twice what they paid for the amp and if they want a better amp and try to sell it.
They get very little return.

But, a Stingray is only a 40 WPC at 8 ohms amp...the Maggies are 4 ohms and I couldn't find any reference as to whether or not the Stignray can be set for 4 ohms...

Plus, the Stingray is $2650, nearly the original poster's entire budget....

And the Jolida units you are thinking of are the tubed units, the hybrids have no such need to change output transformers, etc...

I would agree with you about the mods, unless done by the manufacturer, as they can actually decrease resale value of a component due to the perceived notion that the mods may not have been done well, or correctly, or are actually complimentary to the piece of gear...

The Jolida 1501 has only two tubes in the front end/preamp section and is commonly found for $750...is the Manley over 3-1/2 times better? The one I heard wasn't...and I suspect that with Magneplanars would not be the best way to showcase the amplifier's strengths...

You can read reviews of the 1501 here....pretty good reviews for something that costs like it does...

Plus, here's a review from someone using it with a set of MMG's....

So, if the OP were to spend in the range of $2650, another great hybrid amp to look into would be the Pathos Classic One MkIII hybrid

...it would drive the Maggies a lot better, has even better sound than what I have heard from the Stingray....but that's not his price range and would not allow him to get the things he wanted within the budget specified...and, that's getting into Bryston territory...or into separates territory...


So as far as "totle majic senergy" goes, (as you state it, there are such things as browsers with spell check which helps me a helluva lot) yeah, I do not doubt that if he had your $2650 amplifier and a $1900 phono stage, which is one and a half times what he wants to spend on the entire system, and had a set of higher efficiency speakers, like a set of Reference 3A MM DeCapos, that he would nave a nice setup...but the OP can get the 1501RC and the JD-9A phono stage, along with the JD-100, and the MMG's all within his budget, and have change left over for the other necessary things like decent interconnects and speaker cables....and this is for new equipment, not used, that he can order and get whenever he wants it, and doesn't have to peruse through all kinds of ads to try and find the gear in the second hand market...

In reality sometimes it's just about the budgetary framework...the Jolida system gives an incredible bang for the buck, has great sound, and should be quite nice with a set of MMG's, or most any other speakers that would fit into the OP's price range...

Have fun!

 

[RickB]

Thanks for the info, well there go my "vintage" ideas....:thumbsdn:
Makes sensethough, I guess. I will be auditioning the Paradigms along with the Maggies at Audiolab on Friday, it'll be interesting to hear the differences. I'm also taking along an extra set of ears (my friend).
Re the amps, the Stingray and Brystons, even used, are in the $2-2.5K range, a big chunk of change. Are they really worth it? The Creek looks like a good option.

While I'm on the subject, anyone have any thoughts pro/con re buying used (on Audiogon)?

Audiogon used to be pretty good, but today you can take your chances with some of the sellers...

Some are absolutely great, others may not be...

Some can pack well, others can't...

It's like anywhere else dealing with used equipment, it all depends on who you are dealing with.

.

 

[specialidiot]

the Stingray and Brystons, even used, are in the $2-2.5K range, a big chunk of change. Are they really worth it? The Creek looks like a good option.

While I'm on the subject, anyone have any thoughts pro/con re buying used (on Audiogon)?

Audiogon is pretty reliable, as usual YMMV.

My preference is to buy from an AK subscriber on the Barter Town forum, then Audiogon, then CL/ebay.

Don't know where you are getting your used Stingray pricing... Audiogon has 4 of them listed between $1300 and $1500 right now.

 

[Alexdad54]

Audiogon is pretty reliable, as usual YMMV.

My preference is to buy from an AK subscriber on the Barter Town forum, then Audiogon, then CL/ebay.

Don't know where you are getting your used Stingray pricing... Audiogon has 4 of them listed between $1300 and $1500 right now.

Yu're right, my mistake, I think I mixed them up with something else I was looking at. I'll check the AK listings now.....

 

[RickB]

Thanks for the info, well there go my "vintage" ideas....:thumbsdn:
Makes sensethough, I guess. I will be auditioning the Paradigms along with the Maggies at Audiolab on Friday, it'll be interesting to hear the differences. I'm also taking along an extra set of ears (my friend).
Re the amps, the Stingray and Brystons, even used, are in the $2-2.5K range, a big chunk of change. Are they really worth it? The Creek looks like a good option.

While I'm on the subject, anyone have any thoughts pro/con re buying used (on Audiogon)?

When you go and listen, take music with you that you are familiar with...also take stuff that may be different than what you normally listen to that is very well recorded...I have a CD I burned from digital and analog sources that has several different artists with different things I listen for...soundstaging, decay tails, clarity, that "tinkly" **** buried down in the mix, all things to help me decide what is going on soundwise....

I'll always listen to my CD before going and auditioning anything else just to kind of give me a baseline on what it is I hear here vs. what I hear there...

Listening to cone and dome speakers vs. planars like the Maggies can be quite confusing...the normal speakers may seem to do things better up front, but go back and forth between the two different speakers and listen to the same snippet of a song and see which one has more subtle detail, which one relaxes you more...you are going to be listening to these speakers for a long time...it has been my experience that things that seem great and exciting in a quick listen may not wear so well in the long run and actually become fatiguing which actually tends to make me listen less...

But you should have fun, take your time, and just enjoy the experience.

.

 

[RickB]

Looks like Audiolab has some nice gear, too bad they don't have Creek or Jolida for you to listen to, but it should be an interesting trip!

And while I do work part time for an high end retailer (mostly as labor and technical duties) I do miss having other stores here locally with great gear that I could go and visit and see other things than just what I am normally exposed to...all that's left are the audio-video type stores, with a heavy emphasis on video, that are really no fun for a pure music kind of guy....

Oh well, the more things change, the more things change....

 

[Alexdad54]

RickB,
It's the only store in the Philly area that carries both Paradigms and Magnepan. BTW, I notice in your profile that you have an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A - there's one on Audiogon at a very reasonable price.It has great reviews and I was wondering if used as a pre, is it possible or even good idea to mate something like a Creek or a Jolida to it...and how would it sound with Magenepans

 

[Alexdad54]

Oh, I forgot to ask, Cambridge 840As - should they be a contender because there are some really good prices on them new right now......