New Cartridge and looping at very end of some records.

[ClayTune]

Hello all,

Claytune back again.

So during my last post I spoke about how I got a free cart upgrade to an Audiotechnica AT90 cart which I connected to the stock head-shell with its included L shaped adaptor.

I did the alignment thing (to the best of my ability). Did the counter weight thing, did the anti-skate thing on a blank record, and for the most part a lot of records sound amazing with it, I enjoy much less sibilance than I experienced earlier with the stock cart.

The only thing is now, on certain records, the cart is looping at the very end point (repeating the same spot on the last song over and over).

The Turntable has been leveled with a bubble level from the front most end and the back most end. So it's not that.

One more piece of info that might help is that when I lift the Cue lever the tone arm sometimes bounces up slowly instead of rising to a level point. Then again I am not sure if this is normal or not.

One thing I ordered the other day is a digital tracking force gauge. I'll call that my audiophile treat of the month. Because when I noticed that happening my first thought was inaccurate tracking force at the tail end of the record toward the spindle.

So.
All things being (almost equal), what are the 3 most common causes of this looping phenomenon when considered against all the information above?

 

[onepixel]

Could be your counter weight is a wee bit heavy on the counter weight end and or you could use some high viscosity dampening fluid. The dampening fluid will slowly drop and raise your tonearm and keep it from jumping around.

 

[ClayTune]

Could be your counter weight is a wee bit heavy on the counter weight end and or you could use some high viscosity dampening fluid. The dampening fluid will slowly drop and raise your tonearm and keep it from jumping around.

That sounds interesting. I have no apparent troubles setting and then adjusting the tone arm counter-weight.

Shall I wait for my digital tracking gauge arrives and see if its measurements match that of the counter weight itself? From what I recall this cart tracks between 1 and 2 grams. I had it set at the lowest end, which is 1. So perhaps not enough force?

 

[onepixel]

That sounds interesting. I have no apparent troubles setting and then adjusting the tone arm counter-weight.

Shall I wait for my digital tracking gauge arrives and see if its measurements match that of the counter weight itself? From what I recall this cart tracks between 1 and 2 grams. I had it set at the lowest end, which is 1. So perhaps not enough force?

Depending on the turntable and more specifically the tonearm, how much tracking force can vary depending on a combination of things. Try adjusting to around 1.5 and play a looping album to see if it helps.

Also which certain records? The records that have longer playing side that go further in towards the spindle? That could be the anti-skating.

 

[riksors]

One more piece of info that might help is that when I lift the Cue lever the tone arm sometimes bounces up slowly instead of rising to a level point. Then again I am not sure if this is normal or not.

There should be enough slack on the tonearm wires for it to move freely from beginning to the end when playing the record. And, if you’re comfortable enough to open or dissect the turntable, check the tension on the tonearm wires.

Or maybe, it’s just a tracking force issue.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Could also be the cueing lever not adjusted correctly and the arm is hitting it and being lifted out of the groove as it approaches the center of the record, this is a common mistake.

 

[tnsilver]

^ this. Looping or constant skipping at the same spot on different records rarely (if ever), has anything to do with the cart. While swapping carts owners often unknowingly change something in the tonearm or cueing mechanics and unwittingly attribute the undesired effects to the cart. Constant skipping at the same location on different records is always, 100% of the time, caused by tonearm binding. The cue bar, more often than not, is the primary cause and it's distance from the bottom of the tonearm wand must be regulated and adjusted properly through the entire tonearm arc of movement. Other causes are typically the twisting forces of the tonearm wiring at the bottom of the pillar, or at some rarer cases, degradation, oxidation and dirt in the lateral tonearm bearings - sometimes even of the vertical bearings. Leveling the turntable is always nice but an unleveled turntable is almost never the cause for skips. Look at the right places. It's not the cart.

 

[Mr.White]

The AT90 is a p-mount cart. If I am understanding you correctly you have the p-mount attached to a headshell with the adapter? I tried this recently with a p-mount I really like and on some records I had this exact problem. Skipping in certain places on certain records. I wrote it off as a compliance issue and bought a new stylus for my Ortofon Concorde instead. I don't think mounting a p-mount on a headshell with those adapters is ideal.

The problem was definitely not the TT. I have three carts that I use on this table without issue. Only the p-mount on a headshell w/adapter caused problems.

 

[patient_ot]

You said it's only on certain records - have those been checked on another TT? It sounds weird but some records can have a wavy bubble warp that affects the inner tracks more than the outside tracks. Sometimes it's not apparent from eyeballing the record either. Some carts and tonearms may track these type of warps better than others also.

What kind of level are you using? If it's one of those round bubble levels, I'd suggest getting a torpedo level or one of the bigger ones that are about a meter long. Then check the level of the platter, not just the plinth.

RE: the tonearm, you can check how smooth the bearings are by lifting up the finger lift of the headshell and waving the tonearm from side to side. If there is resistance and the action is not smooth all the way to the spindle, then you might have a tonearm bearing or wire tension/binding issue.

Digital scale is a good idea, many people either don't balance a tonearm correctly or they forget to zero out the indicator ring before setting the weight after balancing. The scale will let you know if you did it right or not.

Re: alignment, what does that mean and what method did you use? My suggestion would be to use an arc protractor, as it takes out a lot of the guesswork. Even better if there is an overhang gauge available for the alignment spec of your TT.

 

[ClayTune]

Could also be the cueing lever not adjusted correctly and the arm is hitting it and being lifted out of the groove as it approaches the center of the record, this is a common mistake.

The only thing is, this looping phenomenon only began after I installed the new cartridge to the tone arm. Before that, I never once experienced this phenomenon.

 

[ClayTune]

The AT90 is a p-mount cart. If I am understanding you correctly you have the p-mount attached to a headshell with the adapter? I tried this recently with a p-mount I really like and on some records I had this exact problem. Skipping in certain places on certain records. I wrote it off as a compliance issue and bought a new stylus for my Ortofon Concorde instead. I don't think mounting a p-mount on a headshell with those adapters is ideal.

The problem was definitely not the TT. I have three carts that I use on this table without issue. Only the p-mount on a headshell w/adapter caused problems.

This was the thought I was trying to stay away from because I really would love to try and work with the P-mount cart with the L shaped adapter on my turntable. My secondary thought was buying another head-shell and cart upgrade. But I first want to see if there is any way shape or form to optimize this current set-up to get something out of it before I upgrade.

Before you settled on it being the incompatibility of the P-mount and the tone-arm, did you try any optimization tricks?

 

[ClayTune]

You said it's only on certain records - have those been checked on another TT? It sounds weird but some records can have a wavy bubble warp that affects the inner tracks more than the outside tracks. Sometimes it's not apparent from eyeballing the record either. Some carts and tonearms may track these type of warps better than others also.

What kind of level are you using? If it's one of those round bubble levels, I'd suggest getting a torpedo level or one of the bigger ones that are about a meter long. Then check the level of the platter, not just the plinth.

RE: the tonearm, you can check how smooth the bearings are by lifting up the finger lift of the headshell and waving the tonearm from side to side. If there is resistance and the action is not smooth all the way to the spindle, then you might have a tonearm bearing or wire tension/binding issue.

Digital scale is a good idea, many people either don't balance a tonearm correctly or they forget to zero out the indicator ring before setting the weight after balancing. The scale will let you know if you did it right or not.

Re: alignment, what does that mean and what method did you use? My suggestion would be to use an arc protractor, as it takes out a lot of the guesswork. Even better if there is an overhang gauge available for the alignment spec of your TT.

Well to your first comment, this phenomenon did not occur till I installed a new Cart to the tone arm. It happened to be a P-mount on an L shaped adapter with the stock head-shell.

The kind of level I am using is a small one with one bubble. I have used it at 4 points on the turntable and determined that it is quite leveled from all angles.

When I aligned it, I used a mirrored alignment protractor. A little more tricky with a P-mount cart on an adapter so that could be one of the issues as well. I can't see the alignment as well as I could with the previous cart because the bottom most point of the cart where the stylus is set is hidden below the upper portion of the cart, so i've been aligning it from that upper portion which involves some degree of guess work, a magnifier and looking at the mirror protractor very carefully.

One thing I also need to fiddle with more is the tone arm height adjustment feature. It's tricky because my apartment is lop sided (which is why I needed to level the turntable to begin with). But I will use a ruler to make sure it is proper height at both ends.

This is the first I have heard of art protractors. Where can I purchase one for a modest price?

 

[ClayTune]

^ this. Looping or constant skipping at the same spot on different records rarely (if ever), has anything to do with the cart. While swapping carts owners often unknowingly change something in the tonearm or cueing mechanics and unwittingly attribute the undesired effects to the cart. Constant skipping at the same location on different records is always, 100% of the time, caused by tonearm binding. The cue bar, more often than not, is the primary cause and it's distance from the bottom of the tonearm wand must be regulated and adjusted properly through the entire tonearm arc of movement. Other causes are typically the twisting forces of the tonearm wiring at the bottom of the pillar, or at some rarer cases, degradation, oxidation and dirt in the lateral tonearm bearings - sometimes even of the vertical bearings. Leveling the turntable is always nice but an unleveled turntable is almost never the cause for skips. Look at the right places. It's not the cart.

The common denominator is that it started only when I installed the new cart on the tone arm. Before that it never happened a single time. I am assuming it is a set up and alignment issue I need to either work out or accept that this cart is not optimal for my turntable and tone arm type and then just buy another one.

 

[Grenadeslio]

The only thing is, this looping phenomenon only began after I installed the new cartridge to the tone arm. Before that, I never once experienced this phenomenon.

I understand this, but if like me each time I change cartridges I adjust VTA, this almost always requires an adjustment to the cueing mechanism. I dicovered this when my arm did the same thing as yours, it was hitting the cueing mechanism. It's easy enough to check, just look for a gap between the arm and cueing mechanism when this is happening, if there's a gap this isn't the issue.

 

[WaynerN]

^ this. Looping or constant skipping at the same spot on different records rarely (if ever), has anything to do with the cart. While swapping carts owners often unknowingly change something in the tonearm or cueing mechanics and unwittingly attribute the undesired effects to the cart. Constant skipping at the same location on different records is always, 100% of the time, caused by tonearm binding. The cue bar, more often than not, is the primary cause and it's distance from the bottom of the tonearm wand must be regulated and adjusted properly through the entire tonearm arc of movement. Other causes are typically the twisting forces of the tonearm wiring at the bottom of the pillar, or at some rarer cases, degradation, oxidation and dirt in the lateral tonearm bearings - sometimes even of the vertical bearings. Leveling the turntable is always nice but an unleveled turntable is almost never the cause for skips. Look at the right places. It's not the cart.

Excellent!

I'll bet that the cue lifting platform needs to be raised, as the arm bottom may be hitting it when it gets to near the end of the record. I have seen a number of cue lifts that are either worn or bent so that the bottom of the arm would only contact it towards the end of the record.

If I may ask, when the cue lifts the tonearm, how high off the record surface is the stylus?

 

[ClayTune]

I understand this, but if like me each time I change cartridges I adjust VTA, this almost always requires an adjustment to the cueing mechanism. I dicovered this when my arm did the same thing as yours, it was hitting the cueing mechanism. It's easy enough to check, just look for a gap between the arm and cueing mechanism when this is happening, if there's a gap this isn't the issue.

I am having difficulty on getting a visual with "look for a gap between the arm and cueing mechanism when this is happening".

Could you please assist me with a visual representation?

 

[ClayTune]

Excellent!

I'll bet that the cue lifting platform needs to be raised, as the arm bottom may be hitting it when it gets to near the end of the record. I have seen a number of cue lifts that are either worn or bent so that the bottom of the arm would only contact it towards the end of the record.

If I may ask, when the cue lifts the tonearm, how high off the record surface is the stylus?

Well, sometimes it does a bounce up above the nominal position it rests in when normally in the up position.

This turntable is only about a year old and i've used it extremely carefully. I think maybe an adjustment is needed rather than anything being worn out.

However, I do wish I could get a visual on some of what you guys are saying.

For example:

"the cue lifting platform needs to be raised, as the arm bottom may be hitting it when it gets to near the end of the record".

Would love to see what this looks like, because I honestly cannot get a meaningful visual on this with just words.

 

[pfcs49]

If you can zero the tracking force (no anti-scate either) so the arm "floats" you'll be able to see any binding or tension on the arm. You should be able to move it with a gentle blowing of your breath, left and right and watching it wobble up and down, confirming no binding (extant the possibility that the cuing mechanism is interfering near the platter, although with no TF, I wouldn't hesitate to leave the platter empty, even remove the mat, and explore what happens to it's freedom when it goes that low, platter stationary, 0 downforce, only your "wind" driving it.

 

[pfcs49]

Well, sometimes it does a bounce up above the nominal position it rests in when normally in the up position.

This turntable is only about a year old and i've used it extremely carefully. I think maybe an adjustment is needed rather than anything being worn out.

However, I do wish I could get a visual on some of what you guys are saying.

For example:

"the cue lifting platform needs to be raised, as the arm bottom may be hitting it when it gets to near the end of the record".

Would love to see what this looks like, because I honestly cannot get a meaningful visual on this with just words.

If what I posted above can be done, you could discover if the cuing lineage was causing the problem.

 

[pfcs49]

One more piece of info that might help is that when I lift the Cue lever the tone arm sometimes bounces up slowly instead of rising to a level point. Then again I am not sure if this is normal or not.

Can you clarify? Arm "bounces" up slowly? Sounds like the cuing mechanism may be sticky/binding coming up. I wonder how it's behaving in descent? It would be good to explore how it's working with the platter off or not running, at least remove platter mat, and confirm that with arm balanced, then minimal TF added (.5g) it is fully descending to the bare platter.