riverrat
professional camper
I think this is some of the best advice you have received in this thread. In fact, many very high end systems today separate the transport and DAC from the get-go.
New CD player vrs Old CD player
- Thread starter blackfly
- Start date
I think this is some of the best advice you have received in this thread. In fact, many very high end systems today separate the transport and DAC from the get-go.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
I find the advice of using a great (I think the word here is older) transport with a modern DAC is a bit of a slippery slope. I am a fan of separates but I find the separate transport/DAC route to be a MUCH more expensive means on this. One of the features of all in one CD players is the fact the master clock is synchronized, which is key. And in a standalone player easier to do.
I admit the 3520 is very tempting, even at the price. I have seen the transport and it is top notch, something I cannot give the nod to in a modern Bryston. But the Bryston has a 20 year warranty on analog circuits, 5 on digital.
I must point out Duffinator that we are not talking about a simple hammer here, that maybe is only $24.99. Even if I get it for $500 that is cash I could use on another new player, and there is no guarantee of longevity. I am sure I could say this of any older player.
Still working on it though.
I admit the 3520 is very tempting, even at the price. I have seen the transport and it is top notch, something I cannot give the nod to in a modern Bryston. But the Bryston has a 20 year warranty on analog circuits, 5 on digital.
I must point out Duffinator that we are not talking about a simple hammer here, that maybe is only $24.99. Even if I get it for $500 that is cash I could use on another new player, and there is no guarantee of longevity. I am sure I could say this of any older player.
Still working on it though.
wsjoe
Well-Known Member
Denon DCD-3560 + DAP-5500 + POA-3000Z + Yamaha NS-1000 speakers = heaven
I only started doing audio about 8 years ago. When I bought my first Denon DCD-1560 cd player, I knew I liked their product. I bought myself to higher models DCD-2560, DCD-3300, DCD-3520, DCD-3560. I quickly realized that most of these shared the Sony laser pickup unit KSS-151A. I used to cost $70+ but quickly increased to over $150. The problem with lasers is that it's hard or impossible to know when it will die. You just have to be lucky. Replacing of the laser pickup unit and the occasional belt are the only two maintenance issues ever needed. I think these are the best for the money audio systems.
So couple of years ago, I bought myself 50 laser units. I have used alot and sold some but now I am left with my personal reserve.
I got a picture of 21 KSS-151A remaining and my personal audio system. Also shown are my Sansui and Denon system. I designed these audio and cd racks.
I love the sound of DCD-3560 paired with DAP-5500 preamp and of course the power house POA-3000Z.
wsjoe
I only started doing audio about 8 years ago. When I bought my first Denon DCD-1560 cd player, I knew I liked their product. I bought myself to higher models DCD-2560, DCD-3300, DCD-3520, DCD-3560. I quickly realized that most of these shared the Sony laser pickup unit KSS-151A. I used to cost $70+ but quickly increased to over $150. The problem with lasers is that it's hard or impossible to know when it will die. You just have to be lucky. Replacing of the laser pickup unit and the occasional belt are the only two maintenance issues ever needed. I think these are the best for the money audio systems.
So couple of years ago, I bought myself 50 laser units. I have used alot and sold some but now I am left with my personal reserve.
I got a picture of 21 KSS-151A remaining and my personal audio system. Also shown are my Sansui and Denon system. I designed these audio and cd racks.
I love the sound of DCD-3560 paired with DAP-5500 preamp and of course the power house POA-3000Z.
wsjoe
Pat urself on the back, homie!
Those shelves are tight!!!
Those shelves are tight!!!
riverrat
professional camper
First I have ever heard of this potential issue, if it is one. Would like others who know more than I to weigh in.
Does blackfly have a point?
Duffinator
Spin The Black Circle
First I've heard of it too. I don't think it's an issue.
Face
BROKEN
To add to F1Nut's advice, I would also check out Cambridge and Marantz high end models.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
I have heard that Cambridge are very hit and miss. You may get a stellar unit and then could get a unit not so inclined. My tastes are somewhat traditional so some units do not wash for me.
If the master clock is not synchronized you get jitter. Much more common on separate DAC/transport setups, unless you get mega expensive gear.
wsjoe: I must say stockpiling those lasers may be wize, but it makes me wonder? Is the laser really an issue?????
My Pioneer PDM 630 is 18 years old and still strong..... guess I am lucky... but buying a used 3520 and expecting long life out of it? I wonder.
The 3520 never sold. I might email him and work on him a bit, unless he relists it.
wsjoe: forgetting any laser issues, have you had any issues with the 3520/3560 otherwise? No issues in the DAC, capacitors, resistors etc........ Buying a good used unit saves money compared to a $3k outlay for something new..... anything to give me reason to think harder?
If the master clock is not synchronized you get jitter. Much more common on separate DAC/transport setups, unless you get mega expensive gear.
wsjoe: I must say stockpiling those lasers may be wize, but it makes me wonder? Is the laser really an issue?????
My Pioneer PDM 630 is 18 years old and still strong..... guess I am lucky... but buying a used 3520 and expecting long life out of it? I wonder.
The 3520 never sold. I might email him and work on him a bit, unless he relists it.
wsjoe: forgetting any laser issues, have you had any issues with the 3520/3560 otherwise? No issues in the DAC, capacitors, resistors etc........ Buying a good used unit saves money compared to a $3k outlay for something new..... anything to give me reason to think harder?
terra1
Addicted Member
Just more food for thought ...
I am not supporting any position one way or the other since I don't have the expertise of others here. Just trying to sort out how much is theory versus real application regarding the elimination of the BCD-1 as a viable technical choice. Economic considerations I leave to you.
I can understand the thought that modern transports may not be as good given different experiences related here.
But is the BCD-1 transport automatically considered or proven that bad or inadequate because it is a CD player? So much that a separate transport (used or otherwise) and DAC should be looked at instead? Is the theory like receivers, that separates afford better or fewer compromises?
But when we get to the thousands of dollars mark, all I can do is drool.
From the reviews there does seem to be some theoretical claims of advantage to have the transport and DAC matched as you say. How much benefit versus the other options I suppose is the debate.
Just did a google with "Bryston BCD-1 transport"
Regarding master clock ...
http://www.techradar.com/products/a...-players-recorders/bryston-bcd-1-95102/review
Bryston has gone to great lengths to create a player that avoids the small but significant timing errors introduced by jitter, citing the fact that both transport and DAC have to be run off the same master clock if optimum performance is to be achieved.
... Bryston claims that the output stage has been tailored to precisely match the requirements of the DAC: specifically to offer impedance that the Crystal chip can deliver, which allows maximum ease of flow.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/bryston_bcd1.htm
The quality gap between the BCD-1 and the DAC onboard the B100DA SST was far smaller and more difficult to discern, which makes sense. As I noted, the BCD-1 uses the same DAC as the B100DA SST. Given that the two also use the same gain stages it's not much of a surprise that they sound very similar. In fact, I wouldn't bet any money on my ability to distinguish between them in a blind listening test.
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=62490.msg564307;topicseen
Absolute Sound Product of the Year Award 2008
***
I know some of this is marketing hype but I can understand why one may find the BCD-1 intriguing. Been a pretty interesting read.
Ahhhhhh ... an opening ...
I am not supporting any position one way or the other since I don't have the expertise of others here. Just trying to sort out how much is theory versus real application regarding the elimination of the BCD-1 as a viable technical choice. Economic considerations I leave to you.
I can understand the thought that modern transports may not be as good given different experiences related here.
But is the BCD-1 transport automatically considered or proven that bad or inadequate because it is a CD player? So much that a separate transport (used or otherwise) and DAC should be looked at instead? Is the theory like receivers, that separates afford better or fewer compromises?
But when we get to the thousands of dollars mark, all I can do is drool.
From the reviews there does seem to be some theoretical claims of advantage to have the transport and DAC matched as you say. How much benefit versus the other options I suppose is the debate.
Just did a google with "Bryston BCD-1 transport"
Regarding master clock ...
http://www.techradar.com/products/a...-players-recorders/bryston-bcd-1-95102/review
Bryston has gone to great lengths to create a player that avoids the small but significant timing errors introduced by jitter, citing the fact that both transport and DAC have to be run off the same master clock if optimum performance is to be achieved.
... Bryston claims that the output stage has been tailored to precisely match the requirements of the DAC: specifically to offer impedance that the Crystal chip can deliver, which allows maximum ease of flow.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/bryston_bcd1.htm
The quality gap between the BCD-1 and the DAC onboard the B100DA SST was far smaller and more difficult to discern, which makes sense. As I noted, the BCD-1 uses the same DAC as the B100DA SST. Given that the two also use the same gain stages it's not much of a surprise that they sound very similar. In fact, I wouldn't bet any money on my ability to distinguish between them in a blind listening test.
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=62490.msg564307;topicseen
Absolute Sound Product of the Year Award 2008
***
I know some of this is marketing hype but I can understand why one may find the BCD-1 intriguing. Been a pretty interesting read.
blackfly
Fidelius Claritus
Good post terra 1. I myself have done no small amount of research in this endeavour. I suppose you better do so given the potential money and importance.
The small problem with the evidence you site is the fact you are comparing a Bryston to a Bryston, which is what they do (I have read all the material on the BCD 1 over and over, believe me) but it is a BIT unfair. It is like saying a Ferarri is a good car, especially compared to another Ferarri.
I know it is an excellent player by any measure sonically or otherwise. I just have but one issue, is the fact the transport is made of cheapo plastic!!!!!!!!! Not something you expect on such a player. In fact, I just emailed James Tanner at Bryston regarding this to ask if there is any possible change/update in the works. I have been told that I am not alone in my observation.
I will admit one of the reasons the BCD 1 is so appealing is the fact there may not be much with the trasport or DAC Bryston can do, but it is an expert in analog circuits (I can attest to this with my 14B SST) and this is where the "edge" comes in. I admit open the lid and you don't see much, like the 3520, but as long as it sounds excellent.....
Never seems to be perfection, does there?
The small problem with the evidence you site is the fact you are comparing a Bryston to a Bryston, which is what they do (I have read all the material on the BCD 1 over and over, believe me) but it is a BIT unfair. It is like saying a Ferarri is a good car, especially compared to another Ferarri.
I know it is an excellent player by any measure sonically or otherwise. I just have but one issue, is the fact the transport is made of cheapo plastic!!!!!!!!! Not something you expect on such a player. In fact, I just emailed James Tanner at Bryston regarding this to ask if there is any possible change/update in the works. I have been told that I am not alone in my observation.
I will admit one of the reasons the BCD 1 is so appealing is the fact there may not be much with the trasport or DAC Bryston can do, but it is an expert in analog circuits (I can attest to this with my 14B SST) and this is where the "edge" comes in. I admit open the lid and you don't see much, like the 3520, but as long as it sounds excellent.....
Never seems to be perfection, does there?
ggrey
Sonically Insane
I hope ressurecting this old thread is ok with you all. It is the closest thing I've found in about 30 thread pages that fits my search. Cpt. Beaky above hits my nail on the head.
I have a Marantz Professional Series cdr 630. It works and sounds "good" (although I have nothing to compare it too). Add to that, I love vinyl, but have many CDs not available on vinyl, and I would like to get the best sound possible out of my digital collection without breaking the bank.
So....would adding/strapping a $200 to $300 DAC from the digital out of the cdr630 provide a noticable improvement? Would the new converters in the DAC outperform the 15 year old converters in the Marantz?
Or should I just bite the bullet, save up and get a new CD player?
Your input, as always, is appreciated.
What are you planning on investing in the CD player? You might as well take all you can and invest it in a DAC at this point as that professional player/burner will have a good transport in it (not sure how much life the laser has in it). Whether its an improvement is anybody's guess. I've not heard that particular Marantz but I've not heard the 'vast' improvements in cheaper players/DACs that everybody raves about. I'd rather invest my budget in a 10 year old TOTL player than a new budget player personally, if I was hunting in the sub $500 range or throw that and more at a new DAC.
charles 1973
Super Member
I've spent some time reviewing CD players and DAC options to improve my CD Proformance. For me the delema was should I order the DAC Module for my Bryston B100sst or buy a new player. I choose the DAC Module because it has 4 inputs, alowing me to switch between my CD player and DVD/Universal player as CD Transports with the amps remote. When I compared the on board DAC of my Denon 1920 to the Bryston's Amps DAC Module sometimes there was a small differenace on other disc's the difference was so dramatic, with respect to soundstaging, imaging and detail, I double checked my connections and settings. If I'd choosen to go with a CD Player based my research of different players including tube unit's, I would seriously consider the Pioneer Elite PD9 at $1,100 check the reviews. For high end I would choose the Bryston BCD-1 at a cool $2,900. By most account's one would be hardpressed to find a better unit period, let alone at it's price, it also matches my Amp and would complete my "Team Canada System".
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Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
That leaves you with the option of buying a very good used CD player from the last decade or so, like the Naim CD5i-2 I have. A little more than a year ago the average resale price for one was about $800, it's a fantastic CDP.
If you're not going to get into the whole music server audio system approach, and are planning to just stick to your CD collection, invest in a really good CD player. That's just my opinion, because it's the way I approached it and I'm very happy with where I am now.
ggrey
Sonically Insane
My complaint with the cdr603 is one of soundstage. I can hear all the frequency components (compared to good vinyl pressings I own) but they all seem 2 dimentional...like a picture...a really good picture, but a 2D image all the same. Kind of like - everything is there, its just squished between 2 planes of glass - like a coursage/flower flattened in the pages of a high school diary. A horrible anaology, but listening last night it came to me that that is what I am hearing....a flat representation of the music. Putting on the vinyl after that brought the reality back into 3D.
Do you think a DAC will address this flatness issue?
Do you think a DAC will address this flatness issue?