New CD player vrs Old CD player

[cdfac]

the post-DAC analog stage implementation is considered by many to be most important to the sound of the digital source. there are plenty of great 90s and even 80s digital players that compete surprisingly well with newer units, at least in terms of musicality and naturalness.

 

[riverrat]

So many ways to go. For $800, you could get a fantastic Pioneer PD-65 stable platter CDP, which sounds very good in its own right, and then add a Music Hall 25.3 DAC, which would give you both tube and SS outputs, and options for tube rolling which many say improves an already nice DAC.

This way you would be set up for great CD playback, also running your DVD player through the DAC and also be ready to play music files if/when you decide to open that can of worms.

There are many different recent higher-end mulit-disc players that don't play blu-ray but do play CD, CDR, SACD, DVD-A and DVD-V that are going for very reasonable prices and sound really good on redbook CD. E.g. Denon 3930ci. But these are inherently more complex than a standalone CDP and may not last as long.

 

[charles 1973]

One of the features of all in one CD players is the fact the master clock is synchronized, which is key. And in a standalone player easier to do.

Thats the question I put to one of the the people at Bryston before I ordered the DAC module for my B100sst Integrated Amp. Apparently Bryston and other High end DAC's Reclock and Resample all inputs, so syncronizing is no longer an issue. Be sure that when buying a High end DAC now that it specificly states that it Reclocks the inputs. For those who have one now that does'nt, and I'm sure many don't Reclock, let your ear's be the judge. I've heard replacing that clock can improve the sound of the system considerably on some of the more expensive players that are otherwise in good operating condition but have substandard clocking.

My guess is even if they don't reclock, a $500 DAC unit it will still improve the sound of lower end player.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

My Pioneer PDM 630 is 18 years old and still strong..... guess I am lucky...

Got ya beat. My Pioneer PD-7050 is 23 years old. :tresbon:

That aside, I really like the separate DAC approach for three reasons...(1) you can upgrade without having to toss a reliable transport, (2) you still have the DAC if the transport fails and (3) you can upgrade multiple players with one DAC...CD player, DVD, Blu-ray, computer, Squeezebox...

 

[TerryO]

Got ya beat. My Pioneer PD-7050 is 23 years old. :tresbon:

That aside, I really like the separate DAC approach for three reasons...(1) you can upgrade without having to toss a reliable transport, (2) you still have the DAC if the transport fails and (3) you can upgrade multiple players with one DAC...CD player, DVD, Blu-ray, computer, Squeezebox...

That's very good reasoning.

This is probably more expensive than most will want to spend, but the Berkeley Audio Design "Alpha" DAC is far and away the best DAC I've heard yet:

http://www.berkeleyaudiodesign.com/

You can, and perhaps should, use google to read the various reviews.

Standard Disclaimer: Rene' Yeager, the Audio Engineer that designed the Alpha is an Audio Buddy of mine and although I believe that the Berkeley is probably the best on the market, this should be kept in mind.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[poppachubby]

This is a really productive discussion for a topic which usually draws flames. To the OP, don't be hasty and research all options within your budget. I think an external DAC offers much more versatility, but you must decide if that even matters. If all you listen to are discs, with no goals to change, a proper CDP is an excellent proposition. At your price point, I agree with what's been said reegarding the used market. Rega, Naim, Arcam and Marantz are all excellent names to watch for and audition.

As far as your questions regarding presentation...YES, one of the more noticable improvements will be in staging. In the sub 500 market of DACs, have a look at NOS technology. It's a nice step toward that elusive analog sound that you enjoy, and can be hard to achieve with digital.

I personally have a couple of DACs which I run a Squeezebox, computer and transports through. I think one of the best options is my 5 disc Yamaha with optical output. I can put on a multi disc collection, or just shuffle several discs and enjoy the great sound of my DAC.

Anyhow good luck deciding. Just try to audition as much as you can, and really visualize where your system is headed. This will make the decision easier.

 

[ggrey]

This is a really productive discussion for a topic which usually draws flames. To the OP, don't be hasty and research all options within your budget. I think an external DAC offers much more versatility, but you must decide if that even matters. If all you listen to are discs, with no goals to change, a proper CDP is an excellent proposition. At your price point, I agree with what's been said reegarding the used market. Rega, Naim, Arcam and Marantz are all excellent names to watch for and audition.

As far as your questions regarding presentation...YES, one of the more noticable improvements will be in staging. In the sub 500 market of DACs, have a look at NOS technology. It's a nice step toward that elusive analog sound that you enjoy, and can be hard to achieve with digital.

I personally have a couple of DACs which I run a Squeezebox, computer and transports through. I think one of the best options is my 5 disc Yamaha with optical output. I can put on a multi disc collection, or just shuffle several discs and enjoy the great sound of my DAC.

Anyhow good luck deciding. Just try to audition as much as you can, and really visualize where your system is headed. This will make the decision easier.

Agreed...great productive discussions here.. exactly what I was hoping for - questions answered and answers that make you think. The decision to move to a DAC is made. Which one, has not.

My homework is to "study" my current digital presentation/dynamics/staging, so that when I decide on the DAC of choice, I will be able to compare known qualities, and report back accurately and helpfully.

Thanks!

 

[TerryO]

Agreed...great productive discussions here.. exactly what I was hoping for - questions answered and answers that make you think. The decision to move to a DAC is made. Which one, has not.

My homework is to "study" my current digital presentation/dynamics/staging, so that when I decide on the DAC of choice, I will be able to compare known qualities, and report back accurately and helpfully.

Thanks!

I think that going to a stand alone DAC is a wise move. I previously posted here about the Berkeley "Alpha" which is just excellent and beats the even more expensive competition. The price is, unfortunately for most, high enough to put it outside a reasonable budget.

If you want a quality DAC that doesn't give up very much to the absolute best, I would recommend looking at the Twisted Pear "Buffalo II" DAC. For about $400 you can buy the populated boards and PS and assemble it all into a case or box of your choosing. Not exactly a full blown DIY endeavor, but it is within the abilities of most people. An Audio Buddy of mine recently put one together and was astonished by it's performance. He recently sold his old DAC [Edit: Meridian 568 Processor/DAC] for about 3 or 4 times what the "Buffalo II" had cost him and remains convinced that he has made a substantial upgrade to his system.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[Les Lammers]

My understanding, which is very limited, is that in the last five to ten years DACs have gotten significantly better while transports have gotten worse. I think the best way to go is to get a respected and reliable transport and run it through a great modern DAC.

Agreed. Google Philips Pro CD2. It is a excellent mechanism. I use a Softone Model 3 CDP with a MDHT Havana USB DAC and have no desire to change anything. I bought the player direct from Japan. Excellent as transport. Actually, I think it is available as a transport and or a kit. YMMV on a DAC but I don't think there is a better transport for the $$.

http://www.icl.co.jp/audio/english/

 

[murphythecat]

Agreed...great productive discussions here.. exactly what I was hoping for - questions answered and answers that make you think. The decision to move to a DAC is made. Which one, has not.

My homework is to "study" my current digital presentation/dynamics/staging, so that when I decide on the DAC of choice, I will be able to compare known qualities, and report back accurately and helpfully.

Thanks!

hi, if your willing to diy, well have a close look to the buffalo dac :thmbsp:.

For around 800$, it compete's with much, much more expensive one's. You would be hard pressed to find anything better for at least 2k, and even. I shouldn't spend 300-400 for a dac, you will want to upgrade. I did the mistake.

bough a musical fidelity v-dac 5 months ago. Suppose to be one of the best bang for the buck unit. well yes, 5 months later, I have a buffalo. and the difference is huge, not a small upgrade. If you want a good sound, the dac will need to be good.

If you dont want the diy route, NFB is suppose to make incredible dac for the money, but I heard people talking about their reference 7 (2k) not being on par with the buffalo. no affiliation here, but I must have spent 30 freaking hour on the mater, and buffalo or nfb (even their nfb-2 seems interesting) were the two contenders based on the review from users, but most importantly from people having tried more then one dac, that seemed to be good dacs. Also, read on the matter a lot, chips used in different dac. Sabre chip is great on the buffalo, but you need to look at the power supply implementation, ect

 

[bluegoose]

Since your old Pioneer CD player/changer is still going strong, I'm confused about what you expect to get out of an "upgrade". Sure, you can buy much more expensive or fancier CD players, either new or vintage, but if you think there's a significant sound difference I think you're fooling yourself. Amplifiers, receivers, turntables and speakers sound very different from one another. Different bit rates of encoded music sound very different. In each of these cases, you can tell the difference subjectively, not just from specs.

But CD players? They either work or they don't, and any decent one that is working 100% will sound about equally good.

You certainly could "upgrade" to SACD or DVD Audio, which both have significantly higher bit rates than traditional CD's, and thus theoretically have better sound. But again, the other components in your system typically have much more effect on your listening experience than the optical drive. For many critical listeners DVD Audio and SACD have not been worth the added expense.

In addition to my older Pioneer changers (very similar to yours), I have a couple of newer Sony 400 CD/DVD/SACD changers. These are great for organizing and storing your collection, and they sound pretty good. You can get these very cheap since the concept has largely failed in the marketplace--most consumers are trending towards storing their huge music collections on hard drives. If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, this the the logical upgrade from your old Pioneer changer.

But my recommendation is much simpler and more economical: enjoy your old Pioneer for when you want to listen to uncompressed CD's, enjoy computer files for when you want convenience, and spend any "upgrade" money on the components that really give you a discernible increase in sound quality--amplifier, receiver/tuner, turntable, speakers, or soundcard.

Enjoy your music without trying to fix nonexistent problems : )

 

[guiller]

But CD players? They either work or they don't, and any decent one that is working 100% will sound about equally good.

Please, don´t make the mistake of assuming this, it is simply not true. Go listen a Naim, Audio Research, Electrocompaniet, Astin Trew CDP and you will notice that they do not sound (by large) like a budget CDP. Many people here have written on their experiences on this.

 

[Raddek]

@ OP

Ever thought of getting an older Magnavox or Philips player ? Philips CD960 is really nice, and amazing build quality too. Mine is from 1988 and is used daily.

 

[riverrat]

...But CD players? They either work or they don't, and any decent one that is working 100% will sound about equally good...

Categorically not true. I used to believe this, as it was part of the early sales pitch for CD. We could all save a lot of money if this were true. But it just ain't so.

Lliterally dozens of different digital to analog converter (DAC) chips have been utilized in CD players through the years, and new ones continue to be developed. They do not always sound the same, and can actually vary significantly in sound. Higher end players tend to use higher quality (read: more expensive) chips than do low end players. Also, there is more than one way to implement a particular DAC chip, so even players with the same chip can vary in sound. The output stage of a CD player is what makes the most difference in sonics.

Hard-core audiophiles also maintain that the quality of the transport itself can influence sound, aside from any circuitry that processes the signal. This may be true, although I have not had a chance to compare super high end gear, and likely could not detect sonic differences due to the transport itself, even if they were there. I'm not ready to discount the possiblity that transport quality affects sound, but I don't think it makes nearly as big of difference as the DAC used and how it is implemented.

With all due respect, anyone who still maintains that all CD players sound the same has either 1) never compared a BOTL player with a nice one in a decent system, or 2) does not have very good ears.

 

[hogdaddy]

I saw Marantz (or was that a Mcintosh? :scratch2 had a cd player with a MSRP of $6000 I wonder how it compares to say one that cost $1000?
I still use a budget cdp atm but am very curious too about better units.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Please, don´t make the mistake of assuming this, it is simply not true. Go listen a Naim, Audio Research, Electrocompaniet, Astin Trew CDP and you will notice that they do not sound (by large) like a budget CDP. Many people here have written on their experiences on this.

+1

Categorically not true. I used to believe this, as it was part of the early sales pitch for CD. We could all save a lot of money if this were true. But it just ain't so.

And another +1