New Stylus or New Cart?

[Sgt Shultz]

@twiiii & @Sgt Shultz: Thanks, a MC cart is likely in my future, but not just yet, as that's more than I want to spend at the moment. I have read good things about the Denon MC carts, though.

So far, I am considering purchasing an AT-VM95ML or replacing the stylus on my Sure R25XT as my top two choices, though I don't know which stylus to get. Turntableneedles.com has this one for a seemingly reasonable price:

3X 5X 8X Stylus for Radio Shack R25xt Shure

Not sure if this is a good choice. I should probably speak to my tech and see what he recommends as far as a stylus for my R25XT is concerned.

@C Hart: Thanks. I'll look into the AT95SH, though I'd be concerned about the highs accentuation.

You'll find most sellers are asking $449 and up for the DL-301, there are a few less but $330 is the rock bottom price from only the one seller.

It's quite a special cartridge but be aware if and when you do decide to go MC they do not have replaceable stylus, they require retipping.

This is true of other upper tier carts in some lines as well like Grado wood body carts vs their budget prestige line, not an issue just something to be aware of.

 

[mr_petit]

If I could briefly divert thread:
So how is the AT-VM95ML voiced? Like how does it compare to AT440 MLA or MLB? How does the treble compare?

Fellow member @JP once posted this insightful graph on another forum that shows the different characteristics between teh AT-VM95ML and the AT-VM540/740ML (which is very akin to the AT-440MLA

You can see that the AT-VM540ML (or 440MLA) needs very little loading but if set up like that, has a superior bandwith. The ATVM95ML ideally need a little bit of loading (200pF or a little bit more).
I think this difference comes from the difference in coil setup. The AT-VM740/540/440 has laminated cores in it's coils that have less saturation.
This is basically the difference between the AT 2 coil setup (the cheaper AT cartridges like the AT-VM95, AT-95, AT-3600 etc) and the AT 4 coil setups (the more expensive cartriges like the AT-440/540/740 and above)
If you measure the inductance of the coils across the frequency range, you will see that the 4 coil setup with laminated cores will have more or less the same inductance at 100hz, 1khz and 10khz, whereas the 2 coil setup with non laminated cores will decrease in inductance when going up to 10khz and above. Less inductance, less efficiency, less output.
In my limited sampleset of measurements, the 4 coil setup also has a tighter tolerance between left and right channel inductance. I don't know if that is by design related, or if AT does some sorting/matching on that, or if it's just my limited sampleset.

That said, the AT-440/540/740 of course do offer some other benefits. They have tapered cantilevers (that might improve performance on loud signals in lower frequencies where the stylus endures larger amplitudes), and recently I discovered (ok, not me, but another guy on another forum who is an extremely critical listener, where I held a test regarding an igd test track), that the 2 coil bodies from AT have some sort of a resonance (might be electrical?) that can be heard on dead quiet grooves. An AT-vm95 body had it (in a test track recorded by @JP), my AT-95e body had it and my AT-3600L body had it too. My AT-440 body didn't have it, and the AT-150 body from @JP didn't have it either.
That last thing is I think not a really big deal as it's not audible when music is playing, but it's definately there and in essence, unwanted.

 

[JP]

Quick note on that plot - the starting value is likely lower than notated, however the increments are correct.

 

[High_Noon]

Lots of options, which make this process a bit confusing to someone just learning about cartridges and the differences between them.

 

[N8Nagel]

If you are not particularly into vintage cartridges, then a modern cartridge where you can easily find replacement styli is the way to go.

Unfortunately, this is a point *against* AT cartridges, as they appear to discontinue replacement styli when they introduce a new model cartridge. Shame, as the vintage AT15Sa that I bought for CD-4 playback is so nice I ended up buying another body so I'd have one I could use on Technics and another on Dual. Previously I was running Shure M91 bodies.

 

[malden]

So far, I am considering purchasing an AT-VM95ML or replacing the stylus on my Sure R25XT as my top two choices, though I don't know which stylus to get. Turntableneedles.com has this one for a seemingly reasonable price:

3X 5X 8X Stylus for Radio Shack R25xt Shure

the photo of that stylus is a "Designer Series" and will not fit your Realistic (Shure) cartridge. They look similar to the #X, etc. but have a taller plastic grip.

You are better off buying the original I linked from ebay

 

[malden]

Lots of options, which make this process a bit confusing to someone just learning about cartridges and the differences between them.

If your budget is between $150-200 then you've narrowed it down quite a bit

 

[mr_petit]

Shame, as the vintage AT15Sa that I bought for CD-4 playback is so nice I ended up buying another body so I'd have one I could use on Technics and another on Dual.

But here you're talking about early to mid 80's cartridges. those are now 40 years old.
Look at how long the at-95 was in production, or the at-440. On that last one the vm540 stylus fits.
I don't think AT replacement stylii are shorter in availability than other brands. Heck, most other brands dont even exist anymore or have stopped making cartridges either years or decades ago.

 

[mr_petit]

Lots of options, which make this process a bit confusing to someone just learning about cartridges and the differences between them.

There are lots of aspects regarding record playback. But within your budget, and if you want a more exotic stylus shape that has less inner groove distortion and longer playback lifetime, the AT-VM95ML is I think your only option if you want to buy new and have warranty.

regarding inner groove distortion, here is a post from @JP where he posts a lot of samples from a test track that specifically targets that issue:

Curious if a modern cartridge would be worthwhile

Elementary, my dear Watson! © ;) As I wrote above, laser reads all what it see with laser diameter 2 microns. Of course it reads more than any stylus can, even VDH with 2 microns minor radius, what is 4 microns diameter. So all distortion what is pressed in the groove and all imperfections laser...

audiokarma.org

(there are also some samples of my at-440mla and some other carts in that thread)

There he also posts the complete AT-VM95 range so you can get a very good impression how different stylus tips perform in this regard on exactly the same cartridge body/cantilever. The difference between the cheaper bonded conical and elliptical stylus compared to the Microline stylus is huge in this regard imho. The nude elliptical and nude shibata are inbetween (the shibata being better than the elliptical)
In my opinion the AT-VM95ML even outperforms some of those exotics placed there, which is a huge achievement for a cartridge that costs only $130

 

[JP]

some of those exotics placed there

Interesting development there - the "Linear Elliptical" on (P)100CMK4 are MicroRidge.

 

[mr_petit]

Interesting development there - the "Linear Elliptical" on (P)100CMK4 are MicroRidge.

View attachment 3065750

That is indeed interesting. I rated that EPC-P100cmk4 pretty much on par with the MC-L1000, and above the other exotics.
Still, the AT-150mlx was the best of your samples according to my ears.

In regard to the comparison between my AT-440mla sample and your AT-150MLX sample, of course I cheated a little bit, having my VTF on the AT-440mla set on 1,75gr, where 1.4gr is the recommended factory setting. 1,75gr is still within the factory recommended limits though. I've never understood the 1,4gr recommendation. From the moment I had the AT-440mla I though it was way to low (this is before I also did these sibilance/fricatives test), both from my personal listening tests and from looking at the compliance of the cartridge. The AT-vm95ML and AT-VM540ML are also recommended to play at 2,0gr VTF, so even a step above that.

Blind testing (on another forum) also revealed that on the Tacet s-laute test, the reduction from 1,75gr to 1,4gr gave a slightly worse performance.
So maybe you can raise the performance on your at-150mlx too in this regard, by raising the VTF a little bit.

 

[JP]

Ya, all the laybacks I posted were right at the recommended VTF. I may play with that later, but with typical program material I don't notice any issues. I'll likely re-do them after fettling the setup a bit. I've also two measurement methods yielding different results for low pF measurements that I need to reconcile before I'll do more FR measurements. Right now I'm working on adding automatic file trimming to the FR plot script, though I should thinking about packing soon as we're off to the airport in 15 hours.

 

[N8Nagel]

But here you're talking about early to mid 80's cartridges. those are now 40 years old.
Look at how long the at-95 was in production, or the at-440. On that last one the vm540 stylus fits.
I don't think AT replacement stylii are shorter in availability than other brands. Heck, most other brands dont even exist anymore or have stopped making cartridges either years or decades ago.

Odd you should mention the 440 in particular. The reason that I chose to buy the AT15Sa was that at the time that I decided to get serious about making CD-4 work with my system, the AT440MLb had just been discontinued, and it was the last cartridge known to work with CD-4 and nobody had tried the VM540ML with CD-4 yet. I figured that I would be the wrong person to be a guinea pig as I had no idea if there were issues with any of my gear, I might have been willing to try it if I had a known working CD-4 system but what I actually had was a pile of parts that theoretically should work if I put them together correctly. At that time the stylus for the 440MLb had also been discontinued and if the 540ML stylus fits the 440ML/a/b bodies, it wasn't known then either. So, given the cost of a used AT15Sa body and JICO stylus was approximately the same as what a NOS AT440MLb was going for at the time (the same thing happened to the 440MLb as happened to the M97Xe when Shure pulled the plug) and both JICO and LPGear were selling replacement styli (as I said, it appeared at the time there was no current production stylus for the 440MLb), it seemed the better choice.

The good news (for me) is that unbelievably, when I fired everything up the first time I got a nice solid pink "RADAR" light on the CD-400. And, I discovered that I really liked the sound of the AT15Sa even on stereo LPs. Not bad for a 50 year old cartridge.

 

[mr_petit]

At that time the stylus for the 440MLb had also been discontinued and if the 540ML stylus fits the 440ML/a/b bodies, it wasn't known then either.

From the moment the at-440mlb stylus went out of production, the AT-VM540ML was already well into production, and AT pretty much from the beginning recommended the AT-VM540ML stylus (VMN40ML) as a suitable replacement for the at-440 body.
That said, the AT-440mlb, the at-440mlb stylus and the at-440mla stylus are still pretty good available.
However, I have doubts that both the at-440 and at-vm540 are very suitable for CD-4 playback. Their induction is too high. MM CD-4 carts are usually something like 250mH max.

If you want CD-4 playback, wouldn't an (HO)MC cartridge with advanced stylus be a better choice? Then induction/electrical bandwith is not an issue anymore.

 

[High_Noon]

@mr_petit: I take it you have ordered from thacker.eu in the past. Are they reliable and do you know if they ship to the US? They have the best price on a new AT-VM95ML I've seen.

In your opinion, would I be better off with the AT-VM95ML or ordering the 5X stylus @malden found on flea bay?

 

[JP]

Have ordered from Thakker many times - no issues.

 

[mr_petit]

In your opinion, would I be better off with the AT-AM95ML or ordering the 5X stylus @malden found on flea bay?

The AT-VM95ML (and Thakker is legit. they've been around for ages as a stylus specialist)
Imho that is by far the best cartridge under $200, let alone under $130 .
Also, it's new. stylus suspensions can deteriorate over time (can become hard or soft, or just crumble and dissolve).
So buying a stylus or cartridge that is decades old can have some risks to it.
I don't know the original compliance of the R25XT (or if it's even known), but if the suspenion deteriorates, it will effect the compliance.
The compliance of the AT-VM95ML is suitable for your sl-1300 tonearm.

 

[N8Nagel]

From the moment the at-440mlb stylus went out of production, the AT-VM540ML was already well into production, and AT pretty much from the beginning recommended the AT-VM540ML stylus (VMN40ML) as a suitable replacement for the at-440 body.

This was a big topic of discussion at QuadraphonicQuad at the time (immediately following the discontinuation of the AT440MLb and introduction of the newer carts) and this wasn't common knowledge. In fact this is the first I've heard of it...

That said, the AT-440mlb, the at-440mlb stylus and the at-440mla stylus are still pretty good available.

Immediately after they were discontinued, prices actually went UP however, because as I say, they were the widely known, currently available new cartridge that was a known working cartridge for CD-4. At least I'm guessing that's why - unless people just like a known quantity rather than the supposedly new and improved version. Although the VM540ML was significantly more expensive than the 440MLb had been, which also rubbed people the wrong way...

However, I have doubts that both the at-440 and at-vm540 are very suitable for CD-4 playback. Their induction is too high. MM CD-4 carts are usually something like 250mH max.

If you want CD-4 playback, wouldn't an (HO)MC cartridge with advanced stylus be a better choice? Then induction/electrical bandwith is not an issue anymore.

At the time my thought process was driven by a desire to have "known good" parts. Very few manufacturers (not even AT) rate cartridges for CD-4 frequency response anymore. The AT15Sa just as an example was rated for 10 Hz to 50 kHz. The AT440MLb, even though known to work for reproducing CD-4, was only rated for 20 Hz to 25 kHz and if those were the actual limits of the FR it wouldn't have worked - that's just the range over which AT saw fit to test it apparently, and the same seems to be true for most cartridge manufacturers. They'll rate to 22, 25, or 27 kHz but not the 45-50 kHz required for reliable CD-4 operation. So, decoding CD-4 with a new production cartridge is an exercise in trial and error. It generally requires someone to purchase and test a cartridge that looks likely (e.g. has an appropriate stylus shape, and other specs may lead one to guess that the true upper bound of the FR may be higher than published) to see if it does or doesn't work.

Now just for shiggles I looked up a Denon DL-110, that being the first HOMC cartridge that comes to mind - and Denon surprisingly do rate it up to 45 kHz thus making it officially suitable. I didn't consider it for two reasons however - first, it's even more expensive than the AT15Sa/JICO setup that I ended up with; second, all of the HOMCs I'm aware of do not have replaceable styli meaning when it wears out you either buy another $400 cartridge (although that's not a huge savings over the $150 I spent for my stylus, or the over $200 it sells for today, but every dollar counts especially when you're only testing a very specialized corner of audiophilia that you're not sure you're committing to) or else have it retipped, which right or wrong seems less precise than a new, factory-made stylus assembly. (Edit: I just realized the DL-110 has an elliptical stylus? How does that even work?)

Finally, to answer the question you didn't explicitly ask, yes, it would have to be a HOMC not LOMC or else you'd need stand alone SUTs as I'm not aware of any CD-4 demodulator that doesn't also include the phono stage in a unit., nor am I aware of one that included the option to use a LOMC. I didn't and still don't have any SUTs laying around so that would be even more added cost. (I do actually have one outboard phono stage that should support LOMC, but who knows if it would pass 50 kHz being far newer than CD-4.)

Oddly this is the second time the packaging of the RIAA stage in unit with the demodulator has come up in discussion for me this week as elsewhere we were discussing the possibility of decoding CD-4 from stereo needle drops. At this point rather than doing surgery on my old demodulator though to try to find a point to inject a signal between the RIAA stage and CD-4 demodulator (if even it works like that, I have no idea if the RIAA is before or after the demod. I would think it would be, but I've been wrong about a lot of stuff before.) I think it might be more worthwhile to pursue a software based solution to try to demodulate directly from the .wav files and output a four channel digital file. Assuming the needle drops were even done on a signal chain that would preserve that high frequency info in the first place.

 

[malden]

In your opinion, would I be better off with the AT-VM95ML or ordering the 5X stylus @malden found on flea bay?

@mr_petit makes some good points. I have no experience with AT cartridges so can't say which I prefer but have been very happy with my collection of Shure cartridges.

The only problem with the RX25T is that no one is making quality replacement styli for them.

The AT-VM95ML (and Thakker is legit. they've been around for ages as a stylus specialist)
Imho that is by far the best cartridge under $200, let alone under $130 .
Also, it's new. stylus suspensions can deteriorate over time (can become hard or soft, or just crumble and dissolve).
So buying a stylus or cartridge that is decades old can have some risks to it.
I don't know the original compliance of the R25XT (or if it's even known), but if the suspenion deteriorates, it will effect the compliance.
The compliance of the AT-VM95ML is suitable for your sl-1300 tonearm.

 

[High_Noon]

@mr_petit: Thank you. I will order the AT-VM95ML from Thakker directly.

@malden: Yes, that is unfortunate.