New (to me) AR2aX speakers are cutting out....Receiver issue or speaker ?

[mizmazzle]

Please stop drawing conclusions about the quality of one vs the other when 5 minutes ago you didn't even know that speaker polarity matters, lol. Do the polarity testing with the AR's, if one of those is out of polority it would make a huge difference....are you reading any of this?

Also, that cutting out you referred to has not been firmly identified, and the AR's have 40 year old pots that are prone to causing issues as mentioned above.

HAHA...I know I don't know jack....only what sounds good to me. I plan on following all your excellent advice when I get home from work. I've learned a lot from this discussion already. Thanks again so much for your input...and your patience with my ignorance. Learning is fun!!!

 

[roger2]

Also, that cutting out you referred to has not been firmly identified, and the AR's have 40 year old pots that are prone to causing issues as mentioned above. Perhaps you have a mid driver not functioning? Or turned way down? Turn the knobs on the AR's and listen to what comes out of the speakers.

It would be a shame for you to give up on the AR's

 

[Lesterbest]

I suspect the JVC can't drive the 2ax. How loud do you listen? How big is the room?

 

[sberger]

When you say the 2ax's were restored, exactly how? This is what I would look at first. A proper restoration on speakers as old as they are would mean at least changing the capacitors, cleaning, if not replacing the pots, making sure the drivers are working correctly, etc. Details on what was done would go a long way in knowing what condition the speakers are exactly in, and whether or not the issues that you are having are related to any defects that they have.

Realize also that these are old speakers, made to deliver a very balanced sound to listen to jazz, folk, classical from 40 years ago. Not the type of hyper bass that so much of today's pop music seems to have to play out of enormous speakers in cars. To the point, they might simply not be your cup of tea.

I agree with all the other suggestions for looking at. Certainly make sure that your polarity is correct. Maybe go down to Radio Shack or any hardware store and pick up some speaker wire that has red and black strands to help ID + and =. It will make your life easier.

 

[fred soop]

When you say the 2ax's were restored, exactly how? This is what I would look at first. A proper restoration on speakers as old as they
.....
Realize also that these are old speakers, made to deliver a very balanced sound to listen to jazz, folk, classical from 40 years ago. Not the type of hyper bass that so much of today's pop music seems to have to play out of enormous speakers in cars. To the point, they might simply not be your cup of tea.

I agree with all the other suggestions for looking at. Certainly make sure that your polarity is correct. Maybe go down to Radio Shack or any hardware store and pick up some speaker wire that has red and black strands to help ID + and =. It will make your life easier.

I have restored a pair of AR-3A speakers over the last few years. A good restoration would need woofer surrounds, new crossover capacitors, cleaning or replacement of the level controls (no level controls on the woofers), and probably tweeter replacement.

Yes, AR was clearly designing for the classical / jazz market. They would assemble banks of speakers in an outdoor environment and perform A/B comparison with chamber orchestras. The AR-3A will not put out much bass .... until there is bass in the music. Then it will really fill the room. The AR-2AX should do the same.

These are inefficient speakers at 87 dB / W / meter and some of those vintage import receivers really couldn't deliver their claimed power to an actual reactive speaker load.

As for phasing, another method is to remove the grill so you can see the woofer cone. Connect a battery (1.5 V should work but a 9 V is not overkill) and see which way the cone moves. If the cone moves in, swap the battery terminals. When the cone moves out, mark the + terminal. Of course, you will need the marked wire back to the amplifier.

 

[mizmazzle]

So I've switched the polarity of the wires. I think it sounds a little better. When I turn it up kinda loud it really muddles out. I've also uploaded the data sheet on the back of my pioneers. None of the links I've found seem to directly link to my exact speakers. They seem fairly efficient at 90db if I am correct in regurgitating what I've learned thus far. Not cutting out anymore.

 

[mizmazzle]

Full data sheet shot
Pioneer cs f51

 

[mizmazzle]

When you say the 2ax's were restored, exactly how? This is what I would look at first. A proper restoration on speakers as old as they are would mean at least changing the capacitors, cleaning, if not replacing the pots, making sure the drivers are working correctly, etc. Details on what was done would go a long way in knowing what condition the speakers are exactly in, and whether or not the issues that you are having are related to any defects that they have.

Realize also that these are old speakers, made to deliver a very balanced sound to listen to jazz, folk, classical from 40 years ago. Not the type of hyper bass that so much of today's pop music seems to have to play out of enormous speakers in cars. To the point, they might simply not be your cup of tea.

I agree with all the other suggestions for looking at. Certainly make sure that your polarity is correct. Maybe go down to Radio Shack or any hardware store and pick up some speaker wire that has red and black strands to help ID + and =. It will make your life easier.

So, the guy I bought from said he did the surrounds (which look good) the crossovers, the drivers, etc...
I've checked polarity which seems a bit better at this point. Its not cutting out now, so that's interesting. When I crank it a bit (not to 10 or anything...like 7) it really muddles out.

 

[mizmazzle]

I suspect the JVC can't drive the 2ax. How loud do you listen? How big is the room?

I don't listen crazy loud. My room is a 10 x 12 room. Not big at all. I am thinking the JVC might be weak too. Here's a rookie question...does a stronger amp make speakers more efficient? Or maybe better asked, does it help push them a bit harder at less volume?

 

[ZOOM]

Those Pioneer speakers are considerably better than that AR stuff. What you're experiencing is normal. There's a lot of weird echo chamber stuff going on at AK. Those AR speakers really aren't very good despite what you'll be told around here.

 

[jbailey930]

Where are you located? I'd have you over and listen to my ARs. My 15 1/2 deaf Beagle can feel the rumble from my AR2ax at 80db. They are not as boomy as JBL 110s or upfront but have a great dynamic range for small 3 ways.

 

[mizmazzle]

Where are you located? I'd have you over and listen to my ARs. My 15 1/2 deaf Beagle can feel the rumble from my AR2ax at 80db. They are not as boomy as JBL 110s or upfront but have a great dynamic range for small 3 ways.

I live in Denver. I think as a newbie I haven't been exposed to a lot of range in speaker/ amp combinations...and am getting a full blown lesson around speaker efficiency and amp wattage. Fundamental yet eye opening. I think my 60 watt JVC doesn't push my 83 db Ars the way it does the 90db pioneers. The longer I listened last night the more the sound seemed to broaden and come alive. I think to get the most I am going to need a larger amp. I'm wondering how much improvement I would hear going from a 60 watt amp to an 85 on those ARs...

 

[Oerets]

Having two pairs of ax's and used one pair on a thirty watt Marantz for years with pleasing results. But had to change them out when going to tubes. Not a good match. I will tell you just sell the AR's. Keep the Pioneers, you like them better.

Did you audition the speakers before purchase? If so on what equipment how did it sound? If not, understandable also.

The only issue I could think of, being the stuffing in the cab not right. But it sounds to me like this would be a wasted adventure. The seller and most who work on these leave the original, to much trouble and mess. Plus added expense for speakers up for resale.

So sell and move on, before you go and pickup a more powerful unit or spend more on cables or whatever. These speakers just are not for you. Nothing against your setup, that is why there are so many different choices. Speakers in all their glory, from Magnepan's Cerwin Vega Klipsch Advent AR JBL British Sound East Coast West Coast Ported Sealed......... No right or wrong just your satisfaction in the end.



Barney

 

[sberger]

[

Those Pioneer speakers are considerably better than that AR stuff. What you're experiencing is normal. There's a lot of weird echo chamber stuff going on at AK. Those AR speakers really aren't very good despite what you'll be told around here.

Wrong. Excellent speakers but like most vintage gear decades old they need somebody familiar with them and experienced with restoration of them to go through and address issues that almost always will need to be addressed. And as said, they are inefficient and they do need sufficient power to make them sound as they should. So not for everyone, but to say "really aren't very good" is just words from somebody that hasn't any idea as to what they're talking about.

 

[Binkman]

The pioneers are simply a better match for your amp. I listened to those Ar's for years w/ a 100w per sherwood and they would deliver bass to any ones satisfaction at 10am. on the vol. knob. Your amp is 35w per and the ar's need a min of a 20w rms amp. Just take Roger2's and my advice.. not the same league as your amp. it's is simply not powerful enough. Acoustic suspension requires power just to get them going as your own test shows on the vol. adjustment.

Hey you haven't lost anything... the Ar's in good cosmetics are a pretty penny for resale. Walnut etc.

 

[roger2]

@Binkman - I am flattered that you are agreeing with what you think I said. But I never intended to imply that the the AR's could not be better than the OP's 2-way Pioneers with his current amp. What I said was: "... if your receiver is only 35W, it is probably not going to do justice to the AR's, which (if healthy) should be very nice sounding speakers." Meaning that the AR's would prefer more power. Not that they can't sound good with 35W

What I am trying to convey to mizmazzle is that it would benefit him to take the time, and make the effort, to go through the basic learning curve as regards proper speaker connection as well as intelligently assessing the pair of AR2ax that has landed in his listening room. These speakers, and AR in general, are not iconic without good reason. And if he bails too easily or too quickly he could be missing the opportunity to experience possibly the most accurate sound that he has to date (I am assuming the OP is on the younger side).

But there are lots of variables. I am not yet 100% confident that correct polarity has been achieved. And nothing is known about the quality of the refurb the AR's received. It could be a beautifully done rebuild, or a total hack job. Are the drivers original? Are the pots working correctly so that mids and tweets are being heard?

@mizmazzle - Disregard comments made by Zoom who is known around this site to be a contrarian (putting it politely), whose posts are often intended to stir the pot, so to speak. Your pair of Pioneers are budget speakers, not in the same class as AR2ax. (not bashing Pioneer, just talking about this particular model of speakers). The Pioneers have two drivers a 10" woofer and a 5/16" so called mid-tweeter. Neither of those drivers, because of their physical size, is capable of properly rendering the vital mid-range frequencies.

If you seriously judge speakers by the "buzz" they produce, as you mentioned in an earlier post, then I will concede that those Pioneers may be a better choice for you. But if you would like to hear music as it was intended to be heard by the musicians and engineers that created it, then invest some energy into assessing and properly connecting the AR's.

Nothing says you can't have two pairs of speakers. Does your receiver have A/B speaker outputs?

 

[goodolpg]

This what I THINK I've read so far...

JVC VR5511 receiver
Pioneer CS-51 speakers 93db
AR2aX speakers rec. MINIMUM 20 wpc 87 db

Pioneers work ok
AR's--"cut out" (dirty pots?) lack of bass (positive about polarity?)
AR's-- volume cranked and bass cranked, seems like a recipe for disaster but that's JMO. (JVC running out of gas?)

If not mistaken, it takes double the power to achieve 3 db loudness increase?
So the Pioneers are twice as efficient as the AR's? Meaning it would take 3 times the power to achieve relatively the same volume levels between the Pioneers and the AR's? Not sure about the math, someone please correct if wrong.

I'd say make sure the polarity IS CORRECT.
Clean the AR's pots.
Might need more power to run the AR's.

 

[Binkman]

Roger; OP's amp is only a 2 channel and was the least powerful of their mfg. line circa about 72-73'.

I should think a good restore tech would have cleaned the AR pots.
Lesson learned about polarity.
not 'might' need more power, does need more power.

 

[Binkman]

OP: Would this ad be where (Denver) you purchased your Ar's? http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5890610387.html
If so these are/were 200.00 per the pair? That is a deal. easily double the price for restored.

More in Denver;
Here's a pretty good kenwood 125w/per match up for the AR's and the guy has other stuff not listed. I would contact him just to have a source for the stuff he's collected and may have some more amps rec's etc.
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5876173322.html

Also did some some digging and this will get you there easy. http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5814456163.html
135w into 8ohms at 0.002% total harmonic distortion. Thd means distortion over the entire range of power. @0.002% means super clean. but perhaps a bit out of your wallet range.
Yammie preamp, http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5905142957.html

further digging and see some decent yammie older av's that should be in the 100w range. natural sound.
http://denver.craigslist.org/search/ela?query=yamaha

Onkyo's, too. not much in panasonic listed.Odd.

 

[mizmazzle]

@Binkman - I am flattered that you are agreeing with what you think I said. But I never intended to imply that the the AR's could not be better than the OP's 2-way Pioneers with his current amp. What I said was: "... if your receiver is only 35W, it is probably not going to do justice to the AR's, which (if healthy) should be very nice sounding speakers." Meaning that the AR's would prefer more power. Not that they can't sound good with 35W

What I am trying to convey to mizmazzle is that it would benefit him to take the time, and make the effort, to go through the basic learning curve as regards proper speaker connection as well as intelligently assessing the pair of AR2ax that has landed in his listening room. These speakers, and AR in general, are not iconic without good reason. And if he bails too easily or too quickly he could be missing the opportunity to experience possibly the most accurate sound that he has to date (I am assuming the OP is on the younger side).

But there are lots of variables. I am not yet 100% confident that correct polarity has been achieved. And nothing is known about the quality of the refurb the AR's received. It could be a beautifully done rebuild, or a total hack job. Are the drivers original? Are the pots working correctly so that mids and tweets are being heard?

@mizmazzle - Disregard comments made by Zoom who is known around this site to be a contrarian (putting it politely), whose posts are often intended to stir the pot, so to speak. Your pair of Pioneers are budget speakers, not in the same class as AR2ax. (not bashing Pioneer, just talking about this particular model of speakers). The Pioneers have two drivers a 10" woofer and a 5/16" so called mid-tweeter. Neither of those drivers, because of their physical size, is capable of properly rendering the vital mid-range frequencies.

If you seriously judge speakers by the "buzz" they produce, as you mentioned in an earlier post, then I will concede that those Pioneers may be a better choice for you. But if you would like to hear music as it was intended to be heard by the musicians and engineers that created it, then invest some energy into assessing and properly connecting the AR's.

Nothing says you can't have two pairs of speakers. Does your receiver have A/B speaker outputs?

Well, a lot has changed since this last conversation. I've upgraded considerably in the turntable and receiver realms. Now have a luxman PD 277 and a PIO sx 850. Needless to say those AR2ax speakers are singing now!!! I am so impressed by how amazing my setup is right now. It's crazy, cause I never thought anything could sound better than my old set up. She was my first. Scares me to think that it could somehow get better than it is now...oh golly!!