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New Toy!

Darn! I hoped I wouldn't upset anyone, and now I see I've gone and done it . . . .oh well! If anybody here wants to dip their toe into understanding circuits, (or refresh what they think they knew) this is a great place to do it: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.html
and especially for audio:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/index.html

These particular pages explain why, when selecting an audio amplifier, the nature of the speaker's reactive load (capacitive or resistive/inductive) is so important:
(1) electrodynamic speakers: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_4/1.html
(2) electrostatic speakers: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_4/2.html

I have an engineering degree too :banana: from that little technical school on the Charles River :thmbsp:
 

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Wrat.... try using balanced wire instead of the RCA i saw in the picture.
I mean, that was a huge different in my setup when I change the cables.

Thanks.

Well since my Pre does not have Balanced out kinda hard unless I get some single end to balance which I doubt I am gonna do BUT one never does know
 
I have noticed that Quad brand speakers will play louder and not go into protect so fast with the current McIntosh SS amps. I am not sure why but suspect the amount of DC in the signal is part of the reason and the autoformer amps do not pass much. The tube amps pass NO DC since they are a true transformer.
If you can swing them I doubt there is any speaker that the MC2301 is to much for.
Transistor amps run off of power supply rails somewhere around 100 volts and tube amps about 500 volts. This makes transistor amps current and tube amps voltage pretty much.

thanks,
Ron-C
 
wrat.......Seems to me it might be time for a new preamp. :D

Yep I'm a gonna get right on that..........yep sure am............
.......here I go....................................................................
ah damn fresh out guess i will stick with my cj.
 
The Quads don't like to play loud, 98dB is about it for them. After that they will shut down. I'm also not sure about the 2905 but some Quads are limited to 100w so the MC2301s may not be the best choice. :scratch2:

Sorry, hit a little over 100dB on mine. no shutdown. My system is in a small room, so that helped but still over 100dB. I couldn't here the kick drum the way I could on a pair of Wilson Audio Alexandria's but it was a good music moment. That being said I usually live in the 80's to low 90's.

The 2905's I've heard from person who fixes quads, said they didn't change the power supply to accommodate the extra panels. He felt they were more of a one note bass kind of thing over the more tuneful 2805's bass. Based on how awesome he fixed my quad esl-63's I will take his word on that.

Busy Street Traffic 70 dB :boring:

Vacuum Cleaner 80 dB :sigh:

Large Orchestra 98 dB :tresbon:

My Quad ESL-63's 100dB :D:yes:

Front Rows of Rock Concert 110 dB :guitar: some probably higher :rockon:

Military Jet Takeoff 140 dB :thmbsp:

Instant Perforation of Eardrum 160 dB :arrow:


Mark
 
Sorry, hit a little over 100dB on mine. no shutdown. My system is in a small room, so that helped but still over 100dB. I couldn't here the kick drum the way I could on a pair of Wilson Audio Alexandria's but it was a good music moment. That being said I usually live in the 80's to low 90's.

The 2905's I've heard from person who fixes quads, said they didn't change the power supply to accommodate the extra panels. He felt they were more of a one note bass kind of thing over the more tuneful 2805's bass. Based on how awesome he fixed my quad esl-63's I will take his word on that.

Busy Street Traffic 70 dB :boring:

Vacuum Cleaner 80 dB :sigh:

Large Orchestra 98 dB :tresbon:

My Quad ESL-63's 100dB :D:yes:

Front Rows of Rock Concert 110 dB :guitar: some probably higher :rockon:

Military Jet Takeoff 140 dB :thmbsp:

Instant Perforation of Eardrum 160 dB :arrow:


Mark

Mark, the Quads are also considered one of the best "late night listening" speakers. They have so much detail at lower listening SPLs that not many speakers can match. :music:

Another interesting side note is that the ESL-63 will present a short when going into protection mode. McIntosh amps have the fuse-less Sentry Monitor feature which disengages the output stage before the current exceeds safe operating level. I don't know how fast this circuit engages and resets itself? :scratch2: But it could be the explanation for Ron-Cs findings of McIntosh amps being able to drive them better? :scratch2:
 
Well aside from the SLIGHT roll off on the top end. The Mc is sounding awful good. It just maybe a keeper I am going to talk to a local tube guy tomorrow about some wings
Wrat,
I've rolled just about every KT88/6550 out there through the 275. Top 3 in no particular order: Gold Lion reissues, GE 6550a's, Old stock Tung Sol 6550's. GL's have nice sparkle at the top, GE's best bass of any of the type I've tried and TS best top to bottom overall balance.
YMMV
 
I don't think the 275 likes the very low impedance dips that Logans can present up top.

Apparently, no McIntosh amp does. My dealer started me with an MC2102 as a good match for my Martin Logan Summits. That combination was as dull and lifeless as anything I have ever heard. Moving up to the MC402 helped a bit. Bass and midrange were fantastic but in the end there was still none of the pristine, grainfree, airy highs I was used hearing from my previous gear. In this price range I'm not willing have less than the speaker is capable of. Big transformers and a near short circuit at high frequencies just don't seem to go together. Changing taps can help with the highs a little but screws up the midrange balance. I would only recommend very clean direct coupled power amps for Martin Logans, preferably with a good tube preamp such as the C2300.

The funny thing is that I was just considering buying an MC275 V just to see if Neil was blowing smoke or not. This thread saved me that money.
 
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We have many customers that say their ML speakers sound best with McIntosh amps. This is after they have used various other brand-x amps. McIntosh amps certainly can power low impedance loads and have been doing so for many decades.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Well the in home demo period is over and the MC275 is a keeper.
With everything it does right I will live with the slight roll off on the top OR attempt to fix it with various tubes .
 
We have many customers that say their ML speakers sound best with McIntosh amps. This is after they have used various other brand-x amps. McIntosh amps certainly can power low impedance loads and have been doing so for many decades. Thanks,Ron-C
Ron, you are quite right of course; but while you were at it, why didn't you tell the people why this is so? Are Mac tube amps great tube amps? Sure, but that alone is not the REAL reason for their success with the relatively small lo-Z portion of (some) electrostatics' impedance curves.

So, the real reason? To paraphrase a former President, "It's the Unity Coupled Circuit, stupid!" This ONE THING uniquely qualifies McIntosh tube amps, among all the tube amps in tube-ampdom, to drive stats with complete ease and aplomb -- BECAUSE -- as Mr. Ron Evans will I'm sure confirm, the UCC is a current-controlled circuit. All other conventional push-pull tube amp circuits are voltage-controlled.

Now, Frank McIntosh came up with the UCC to achieve lower distortion figures, not to drive electrostats. He was no doubt aware of electrostats since they were being developed at Bell Labs while he was employed there. And from what I've read, they sounded excellent compared to other speaker designs of the time. Unfortunately, the idea had to be discarded because the diaphragm was made of bovine intestinal membrane, and it began to smell bad after a few days -- (and if you think I'm blowing smoke, look it up!)

Today when connected to a Mcintosh tube amplifier, the (capacitive reactance) electrostat "looks back" through the bifilar output transformer and sees: current! If the amp were anything but a Mac, it would see voltage -- not exactly optimum for a stat, certainly not like a McIntosh!

I've had my electrostats now for over 20 years, and have driven them with some excellent amps, including ARC (tube) and Mark Levinson (ss) so I really do know what to expect, honest! And when I decided to sell the Levinson and finally go with a tube amp again, I did some serious research which included speaking to the manufacturers themselves, and asking a lot of technical questions. The bottom line was that only a McIntosh tube amp had the design chops to be able to grab an electrostat, the way say a Krell can grab a woofer :yes:

I will allow there is a certain rationale for using a solid state amp with the older model hybrid electrostats which require the amp drive a woofer section along with the stat panel. But something is lost either way, unless of course you bi-amp. And I've done that too :yes: even though my "woofer" was a pair of Wilson Puppies! But jeeeez, so much gear!

Finally, MartinLogan, and some others I've noticed, have come to their senses and stopped chasing the "full-range electrostat" grail. (For that, there is Soundlab, and even they work quite nicely with Mac tube amps, thank you very much!) For the rest of us, MartinLogan now (finally) supplies their "hybrids" with (essentially) a built-in, self-powered subwoofer. This frees the owner to choose the best amp for the panel, and that's all I'm going to say about that!
 
Well the in home demo period is over and the MC275 is a keeper. With everything it does right I will live with the slight roll off on the top OR attempt to fix it with various tubes .
"fix it" is exactly the right term! And if you search >> tube rolling MC275 << on this forum, you'll discover a lot of "fixes"! Not the least of which will be a beautifully sweet and extended high end. So much so, that I actually engage the "hi-frequency softening switch" on my CLS-IIz's for best frequency balance (even with my now-attenuated hi-frequency hearing :yes:)
.
 
Ron, you are quite right of course; but while you were at it, why didn't you tell the people why this is so? Are Mac tube amps great tube amps? Sure, but that alone is not the REAL reason for their success with the relatively small lo-Z portion of (some) electrostatics' impedance curves.

So, the real reason? To paraphrase a former President, "It's the Unity Coupled Circuit, stupid!" This ONE THING uniquely qualifies McIntosh tube amps, among all the tube amps in tube-ampdom, to drive stats with complete ease and aplomb -- BECAUSE -- as Mr. Ron Evans will I'm sure confirm, the UCC is a current-controlled circuit. All other conventional push-pull tube amp circuits are voltage-controlled.

Now, Frank McIntosh came up with the UCC to achieve lower distortion figures, not to drive electrostats. He was no doubt aware of electrostats since they were being developed at Bell Labs while he was employed there. And from what I've read, they sounded excellent compared to other speaker designs of the time. Unfortunately, the idea had to be discarded because the diaphragm was made of bovine intestinal membrane, and it began to smell bad after a few days -- (and if you think I'm blowing smoke, look it up!)

Today when connected to a Mcintosh tube amplifier, the (capacitive reactance) electrostat "looks back" through the bifilar output transformer and sees: current! If the amp were anything but a Mac, it would see voltage -- not exactly optimum for a stat, certainly not like a McIntosh!

I've had my electrostats now for over 20 years, and have driven them with some excellent amps, including ARC (tube) and Mark Levinson (ss) so I really do know what to expect, honest! And when I decided to sell the Levinson and finally go with a tube amp again, I did some serious research which included speaking to the manufacturers themselves, and asking a lot of technical questions. The bottom line was that only a McIntosh tube amp had the design chops to be able to grab an electrostat, the way say a Krell can grab a woofer :yes:

I will allow there is a certain rationale for using a solid state amp with the older model hybrid electrostats which require the amp drive a woofer section along with the stat panel. But something is lost either way, unless of course you bi-amp. And I've done that too :yes: even though my "woofer" was a pair of Wilson Puppies! But jeeeez, so much gear!

Finally, MartinLogan, and some others I've noticed, have come to their senses and stopped chasing the "full-range electrostat" grail. (For that, there is Soundlab, and even they work quite nicely with Mac tube amps, thank you very much!) For the rest of us, MartinLogan now (finally) supplies their "hybrids" with (essentially) a built-in, self-powered subwoofer. This frees the owner to choose the best amp for the panel, and that's all I'm going to say about that!

Nsgarch, I am familiar with the concept of unity coupled circuit and it's advantages, I've done some reading on it. I saw the debate on tube asylum as well.

I'll ask you one simple question, how much current can an MC275 provide at peak? Because I would be very suprised if it exceeds even 7 amps.


As far as Martin Logan not chasing the full range electrostats, you must have missed their new flagship??? :scratch2:
 
Nsgarch, I am familiar with the concept of unity coupled circuit and it's advantages, I've done some reading on it. I saw the debate on tube asylum as well. I'll ask you one simple question, how much current can an MC275 provide at peak? Because I would be very suprised if it exceeds even 7 amps.
There's not enough information for me to answer that; I think you should call McIntosh tomorrow, and see if you can speak with Ron Evans. I bet the first thing he says is "what kind of speakers will you be driving with it?" It's not "how much current" but rather how many watts does the amp have to pump out to in order to make available 7 amps of current (which is quite a lot BTW.) My whole system, at full tilt, including the sub and the MC275 driving my stats, only draws 3Arms from the Exactpower regenerator :yes:
As far as Martin Logan not chasing the full range electrostats, you must have missed their new flagship??? :scratch2:
Yeah, right!:D If you check the CLX's specs however, it only goes down to 56Hz and then it poops out! Not exactly what I'd call "full range" would you? My CLS-IIz's actually go 10Hz lower than that before they poop out! I'm anxious to hear the CLX, believe me! But unfortunately, Tucson AZ is one of high-end audio's loneliest outposts:sigh: Most CLX owners are pairing them with 1 or 2 Martinlogan Descent subwoofers. However, with all due respect to MartinLogan, (and all due credit to Soundlab), this only highlights the difficulty of producing low frequencies with an electrostat.
 
I have listened to the CLX on the MC2301s and they sounded very good. If you used the 275 on these I would run one per channel in mono.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
There's not enough information for me to answer that; I think you should call McIntosh tomorrow, and see if you can speak with Ron Evans. I bet the first thing he says is "what kind of speakers will you be driving with it?" It's not "how much current" but rather how many watts does the amp have to pump out to in order to make available 7 amps of current (which is quite a lot BTW.) My whole system, at full tilt, including the sub and the MC275 driving my stats, only draws 3Arms from the Exactpower regenerator :yes:Yeah, right!:D If you check the CLX's specs however, it only goes down to 56Hz and then it poops out! Not exactly what I'd call "full range" would you? My CLS-IIz's actually go 10Hz lower than that before they poop out! I'm anxious to hear the CLX, believe me! But unfortunately, Tucson AZ is one of high-end audio's loneliest outposts:sigh: Most CLX owners are pairing them with 1 or 2 Martinlogan Descent subwoofers. However, with all due respect to MartinLogan, (and all due credit to Soundlab), this only highlights the difficulty of producing low frequencies with an electrostat.

Here you again substituting amps for voltage for wattage when it suits the argument :D

The fact remains the same, the rated power output of an amplifier is based on two things, current and voltage out. As the impedance drops you will have less voltage and more current. As the impedance goes up, you will have more voltage and less current. The end result is the same wattage which is capped at the power rating of the amplifier no matter how you twist it or turn it. McIntosh has not invented a way to get around ohm's law either. :D



Here is an example of a 90w Lamm ML1.1 tube monoblock. Note the slight difference between the "rated" and "actual maximum" and the rating with regards to THD.


Rated output current:


4.47 Amps peak into 8 Ohms, corresponding to 160 Watts peak.

6.32 Amps peak into 4 Ohms, corresponding to 160 Watts peak.

8.94 Amps peak into 2 Ohms, corresponding to 160 Watts peak.


Rated voltage output:

37.95 Volts peak into 8 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.

26.83 Volts peak into 4 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.

18.97 Volts peak into 2 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.



Maximum output power with no more than 5% THD.

90 Watts into 8 Ohms.

90 Watts into 4 Ohms.

90 Watts into 2 Ohms.



Maximum Output Voltage:

37.95 Volts peak into 8 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.

26.83 Volts peak into 4 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.

18.97 Volts peak into 2 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.



Maximum Output Current:

4.74 Amps peak into 8 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.

6.71 Amps peak into 4 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.

9.49 Amps peak into 2 Ohms, corresponding to 180 Watts peak.


Compare that with say a 501 which can deliver 1000w peak, has about 100 amps of peak current and tell me which amp is better prepared to deal with a low impedance situation. :D
 
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100 amps x 10 volts = 1000 watts
10 amps x 100 volts = 1000 watts
So how many amps would you like with your watts today?

Good thing for us electrostat owners that those stators and diaphragms, charged at upwards of 5000 volts, can only pass miniscule amounts of current, or we'd all be dead!
 
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