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Newbie having trouble refoaming Kirksaeter Monitor 150s--centering problems

R

rbullock

New Member
Hi, I've started refoaming a pair of Kirksaeter speakers that both need new woofer surrounds and I'm having trouble getting rid of the squeaky rubbing sound when I gently depress the woofer around the cone. By slightly resetting the surround I reduced the squeak/rubbing but didnt eliminate it. Now, with the glue having set, I played music at a low volume but the bass is muddy and it's obvious that I didn't do this right.

I did not use 'the battery method' because I didn't understand it (I don't know anything about electrical systems). The way people described it, installing and tweaking the surround by hand sounded simple so that's what I did.

Any advice on what I did wrong or what I should do instead? If it's the battery method can someone point me toward an explanation that's pitched to beginners and hopefully does not involve buying electrical equipment?

If I don't get this right, is there someone in NYC (I'm in Brooklyn) who would do this for me for a reasonable rate? I saw Anologique mentioned here and just sent them an inquiry. Anyone else who does this work reasonably or, better from my perspective, could just show me how to do it?

Thank you very much for any advice?
 
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Didnt read your full paragraph........ Did you shimmy the coil. Doing it by feel leaves too much room for error.
 
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Hi, no I didn't. I had picked up a woofer surround kit from Lautsprecher in Germany they said was designed for the Kirksaeters (though it turns out it wasn't) and their instructions were to do it by feel only -- as in, 'center the woofer so that there's no scraping', without explaining how one eliminates scraping that's already present. I just read a bit about shimmys and I'll give that a try tomorrow, so thanks!
 
I purchased a "refoam kit" from Ebay recently, were for Advent 1s... the kit came with excellent instructions. I did note that the centering process was somewhat "learned" and involved the same centering method. However in moving the cone about, I realized there was an off-center movement that reduced coil rubbing. This "feel" was not explicit in the instructions I got.... so I take it some of this is "learning curve".

Unfortunately once the surround adhesive sets, there is very little chance of repositioning for the "fine tune" :(. You did say your surrounds may not have been actual OE replacements. ? I believe this can make a big difference and some of the tolerances on the brand speaker models can be quite tight :idea:!

I know this doesn't help your situation.. and the best I can advise is perhaps a do-over with the correct foams. I am willing to gander, that if those surrounds are not to spec, they may actually have increased the issue you are dealing with.

For additional hind sight... you can "Google" re-foaming speakers... and you should get some additional hands-on visual aid.

In a past post, believe it to be about the Advents... I stated "re- foaming" is not for everyone... I still stand by that position. Its "artsy" :confused:
 
Did the woofer move freely with out scraping before you did the foams? As in did it center by hand and move freely up and down.
 
Thank you for the additional posts. I believe the woofer moved freely beforehand, but because I picked these up used, with the damaged woofers, I didn't inspect closely beyond looking at the rotten foam an dcan't say for sure. Just checked the other speaker in the pair and that one does. Re. OEM surrounds, Kirksaeter is a tiny German-Danish maker and their speakers, let alone parts, are very scarce in the US -- part of the fun, but also a pain. So I was excited to see that Lautsprecher offered, at a rather premium price, what it said were surrounds for the Monitor 150s, though they did not actually say they were OEM. In any case I wrote them saying that the surrounds did not fit and asking for proper replacements.

As to the learning process of centering the woofer, I did get some of the initial scrapes to go away, but not all, and I did so by random tugging and pulling since I had absolutely no sense of what would actually work. So I'll try again with shims.

Thank you so much for your suggestions!
 
Oh.... I see what you saying and that is true :thumbsup:. Often a good speaker will appear to be just in need of the foam replacement and that would be the only fix needed for recovering the drivers. However if the voice coil is spent, refoaming will not recover the speaker... as a system this is. And I have experienced this... as diminishing returns in getting the entire system to full function.

There are ways to test the speaker before going the investment... and perhaps other posters could lend you these techniques.
 
Thats the idea always make sure that the coil is still good before you refoam. You will be surprised how many people use speakers with the surrounds shot and think there doing no harm. Which leeds to the coil getting knackered. Ive refoamed quite a few sets of speakers. Speaking from experience.
 
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I know its too late since you have already refoamed, but you can (and should) test woofers before refoaming.
Lay the speaker on its back (with the cone pointed up). Play some music or a 30hz test tone at low volume. The woofer should play with no distortion or rubbing, even with the surround completely gone.
Just make sure to keep the volume low as over-excursion can happen much easier with no surround.

If the woofer rubs or distorts while doing this test there is probably some voice coil damage. Like was mentioned above, many people keep using speakers even when the foams have deteriorated. This will eventually destroy the voice coils because of the cone sag
 
I have refoamed many speakers, all successfully, so I will share a couple of tips. Firstly, don't be afraid to shim the voice coil but do be careful when cutting the dust cap. I found that cutting 95% round worked well and it leaves a 'tin can' flap so you can hinge the cap back and insert your shims. This helps with recentering the cap.

Secondly, if coil rub is a problem, you could be suffering basket (or spider) sag. This occurs when drivers are left in an upright position with decayed foam for a long time. To combat spider sag, you can try reinstalling the driver rotated through 180 degrees.

The last thing, and something I actually haven't tried yet, is tone generation. This is where you hook up the driver to an amp and, using a smartphone app, play a generated tone which in theory will help to centre to cone whilst you do the gluing.

Let us know how you get on and as always, post up some pics :-)
 
I gave up shimming when I was told of and tried the 60 Hz test tone method. I have never just gone "by feel". I prefer the tone method because there is no need to cut anything. Plus, if there is noise when playing the tone through and un-foamed speaker (at moderate volume), you know there are bigger problems.

If you need a tone generator, there is a great free Android app called "PA Tone".
 
To me, cutting off the dust cap and shimming is by far the easiest part of the refoaming process, and is cheap insurance that you will not have to repeat the difficult parts. I've done at least 50 refoams all using shims and never had a voice coil rub.

Others have similar success using a test tone, but I never tried that. I move/rotate the woofer a lot while glueing, and having wires hooked up to it seems like it would be a PITA.

+1 on the suggestions to verify the VC is not toast before refoaming.
 
Thank you all for your excellent advice and suggestions. I'm going to call Stereo Supply tomorrow to see if I can replace what seem to be the wrong woofer surrounds. I'll also read more on voice coil issues to see if I can at least diagnose the problems if any. I will post an update later, but thanks again, what a great community!
 
did you use the white glue? If so, you can wet the foam surround and lift it off the speaker. And then re do the centering.
 
Some woofers can be centered manually and some not. All woofers can be centered when installing new surrounds with a 30hz tone.
 
westend said:
Some woofers can be centered manually and some not. All woofers can be centered when installing new surrounds with a 30hz tone.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I always use the the 30Hz tone method as well. I've lost count of how many Re-foams I've done now, and since I was taught this method, on here btw, It's done me well. Nothing against people who use the shim method. I just like the fact that, if the speakers still have nice dust caps on them, using the 30Hz tone method, lets you keep those nice dust caps, as well as saving money and time. Dust caps are not getting any cheaper.
 
Now to add more confusing information to the mix of this thread....

Yesterday, Monday, I did refoam the 6 1/2" woofer of an Infinity 325... nice set of speakers gotten at the G-Will. They should sound nicely after the new surrounds are in place and I am pretty sure they have no other damage.

Interestingly enough, I used glue (adhesive) from a prior repair on a pair of Advents. The glue is stated to be "CS", a milky looking substance rather easy to work with and hardens with little to no residue. The surround positioned well and the stability looks good (this morning). Out of curiosity.. I researched the "CR" glue that also came with my repair kit. According to the spec sheet, it should be used with polymer cones.

Needless to say, I am not going to remove the CS and reapply CR as the finish and structure looks quite sound. I did "google" the adhesives and found the following via EBAY: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131013540110.

It seems there is no set "rule" for applying either/or speaker adhesive, just some accomplished techniques :idea:.

I will say the most difficult task I had was removing the retention ring for the speaker frame.... can anyone lend an easier method for removing this well fitted piece.. :eek:..?
 
I replaced the surrounds on my Monitor 130's but the ones I ordered were a little too big. Followed the instructions from Simply Speakers and cut about 1/4" piece out and the fit was perfect.
This left a good 1/4" of overlap too as recommended and the woofers work and sound perfect. Centered them by hand but I have done a lot of woofers over the years.

Found getting the exact size foam is next to impossible due to the odd dimensions (metric?) of the Seas woofers used in these. They are terrific speakers when working properly and you will enjoy the heck out of them.
 
Capgun said:
Agreed. I always use the the 30Hz tone method as well. I've lost count of how many Re-foams I've done now, and since I was taught this method, on here btw, It's done me well. Nothing against people who use the shim method. I just like the fact that, if the speakers still have nice dust caps on them, using the 30Hz tone method, lets you keep those nice dust caps, as well as saving money and time. Dust caps are not getting any cheaper.
Click to expand...

I always shim and re-use the old dust cap. Done properly, you can't tell it was ever removed.

One reason I shim instead of using a tone is that it allows me to inspect the voice coil for signs of overheating (discoloration, bulging/blisters).
I would hate to waste my time and money re-foaming if the VC is toast. I've seen a few that were...
 
I've done shims and battery method and each worked fine. The battery method works so well and saves time and is so simple so no longer shimming.
 
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