Well, "polite" usually means good, in the non-audio world.
But, I've read where it seems to imply kinda boring.
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"No Point" getting higher end MM if you can properly run MC as well
- Thread starter TunerLanding
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Well, "polite" usually means good, in the non-audio world.
But, I've read where it seems to imply kinda boring.
In this case, polite means that the presentation is not quite as dynamic as the 2M Bronze, but the increased separation, air, and reduced surface noise, more than compensate, in my opinion. And the Quintet only has about 22 hours on it. I don't consider it fully broken in yet.
The 2M Red is brash, a bit too jangly, and in your face. The 2M Bronze is more controlled, delicate or forceful, as the music demands. The Quintet seems a bit laid back, at this point, it can certainly punch, but it's a precision fighter, not a brawler.
Andre Garcia
“WITHOUT MUSIC, LIFE WOULD BE A MISTAKE”
Is hard put a price to a sense. The sound you like is unique and will take time until you really find the sweet spot for you.
A cart is not magic, the entire gear is the answer. Refining your gear will show you the weak points and accordingly you will improve them finding exactly what you are looking for. I see people playing wax time records using expensive carts, again the cart is not magic, an expensive cart will not make a cheap record better, or an untuned tonearm play great. Thats my opinion, prices means nothing for the value to listen the way you like.
AG.
A cart is not magic, the entire gear is the answer. Refining your gear will show you the weak points and accordingly you will improve them finding exactly what you are looking for. I see people playing wax time records using expensive carts, again the cart is not magic, an expensive cart will not make a cheap record better, or an untuned tonearm play great. Thats my opinion, prices means nothing for the value to listen the way you like.
AG.
LP-THORN
Super Member
Perhaps "refined" would be a key word to describe , even realize the "better" cartridge ?
Refinement to me , does not necessarily mean lack of dynamics or punch etc.....
Description of a cartridge sound might require comparison with the sound of another cartridge ( in most cases. )
And the quality of the phono stage is of great importance too.
Refinement to me , does not necessarily mean lack of dynamics or punch etc.....
Description of a cartridge sound might require comparison with the sound of another cartridge ( in most cases. )
And the quality of the phono stage is of great importance too.
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Comparison might be best. To me "refined" sounds delicate. Maybe, not the best adjective for all types of music.
muovimies
Super Member
In a way HOMC is a "worst of both worlds" design - the higher outputs comes from more turns of wire in the moving coil, which will lead to more moving mass than otherwise identical LOMC design - that will likely lead to a more peaky treble response and unlike MM designs, you can't try to tune it out with careful loading. On the upside they do have the higher output, but with modern electronics LOMC output levels are no problem. It makes sense to me HOMC are all but extinct.
What any kind of MC has over MM/MI though is orders of magnitude lower inductance. A typical high output MM cartridge would be somewhere in the 100-900mH range, depending on design, most being close to middle of that range. A typical LOMC cartridge would be more like 0.01mH - 0.05mH. HOMC maybe 0.1-0.5mH. The lowest inductance MM carts I'm aware of are the Stanton LZS / Pickering XLZ (same design) with their 1mH inductance. That's miniscule compared to typical MM but it's still about 100 times more than an MC design with similarly low output.
I have some rather impressive MM cartridges (including a Pickering XLZ) that tick all the boxes technically, but for some reason a halfway decent MC will always bring me closer to the music and have better detail separation, even when compromising on stylus compared to top end MMs. A more expensive MC with a very good stylus just highlights the difference. The Pickering XLZ already has low enough inductance to take capacitive loading out the picture, and I think overall it comes the closest to MC cartridges. I don't know if the difference in inductance matters, I'm inclined to think it does because it's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for preferring MC cartridges.
What the MMs have over MC carts is tracking ability - not a huge concern for vast majority of recorded music and some MC carts track very well, but none that I have can match the better MM carts for ultimate tracking ability. I have a AT-15Sa which has a specified tracking force range of 1-1.75 with 1.5g being the recommended setting. I once run it for a while with 0.7g by accident and never noticed until I hit an LP with a very hot trombone that's difficult to track. It tracks it without problem in the recommended setting, with 0.7g it performed about as well as my best MC carts.
EDIT: to add, I answered YES to the poll but it's according to my preferences. If you were to use tracking ability (for example) as the criteria, it would be a resounding NO
What any kind of MC has over MM/MI though is orders of magnitude lower inductance. A typical high output MM cartridge would be somewhere in the 100-900mH range, depending on design, most being close to middle of that range. A typical LOMC cartridge would be more like 0.01mH - 0.05mH. HOMC maybe 0.1-0.5mH. The lowest inductance MM carts I'm aware of are the Stanton LZS / Pickering XLZ (same design) with their 1mH inductance. That's miniscule compared to typical MM but it's still about 100 times more than an MC design with similarly low output.
I have some rather impressive MM cartridges (including a Pickering XLZ) that tick all the boxes technically, but for some reason a halfway decent MC will always bring me closer to the music and have better detail separation, even when compromising on stylus compared to top end MMs. A more expensive MC with a very good stylus just highlights the difference. The Pickering XLZ already has low enough inductance to take capacitive loading out the picture, and I think overall it comes the closest to MC cartridges. I don't know if the difference in inductance matters, I'm inclined to think it does because it's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for preferring MC cartridges.
What the MMs have over MC carts is tracking ability - not a huge concern for vast majority of recorded music and some MC carts track very well, but none that I have can match the better MM carts for ultimate tracking ability. I have a AT-15Sa which has a specified tracking force range of 1-1.75 with 1.5g being the recommended setting. I once run it for a while with 0.7g by accident and never noticed until I hit an LP with a very hot trombone that's difficult to track. It tracks it without problem in the recommended setting, with 0.7g it performed about as well as my best MC carts.
EDIT: to add, I answered YES to the poll but it's according to my preferences. If you were to use tracking ability (for example) as the criteria, it would be a resounding NO
too many other variables in the sound equation to make that statement. In some cases, I have found the complete opposite, especially at the lower price points. And if a person is going to spend 5 figures on an LOMC cart, it is a complete waste unless they have the arm, table and outboard phono pre to match it.
LP-THORN
Super Member
It may also mean high resolution ( low distortion ) ?
Andre Garcia
“WITHOUT MUSIC, LIFE WOULD BE A MISTAKE”
Need to define the framework first, then you can refine what is within.
AG.
I agree 100%.
However, how many times have you read something like this, "the cartridge has a refined sound" --- a statement just sitting there alone, on its own merit --- without any context or framework?
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In a way HOMC is a "worst of both worlds" design - the higher outputs comes from more turns of wire in the moving coil, which will lead to more moving mass than otherwise identical LOMC design - that will likely lead to a more peaky treble response and unlike MM designs, you can't try to tune it out with careful loading. On the upside they do have the higher output, but with modern electronics LOMC output levels are no problem. It makes sense to me HOMC are all but extinct.
What any kind of MC has over MM/MI though is orders of magnitude lower inductance. A typical high output MM cartridge would be somewhere in the 100-900mH range, depending on design, most being close to middle of that range. A typical LOMC cartridge would be more like 0.01mH - 0.05mH. HOMC maybe 0.1-0.5mH. The lowest inductance MM carts I'm aware of are the Stanton LZS / Pickering XLZ (same design) with their 1mH inductance. That's miniscule compared to typical MM but it's still about 100 times more than an MC design with similarly low output.
I have some rather impressive MM cartridges (including a Pickering XLZ) that tick all the boxes technically, but for some reason a halfway decent MC will always bring me closer to the music and have better detail separation, even when compromising on stylus compared to top end MMs. A more expensive MC with a very good stylus just highlights the difference. The Pickering XLZ already has low enough inductance to take capacitive loading out the picture, and I think overall it comes the closest to MC cartridges. I don't know if the difference in inductance matters, I'm inclined to think it does because it's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for preferring MC cartridges.
What the MMs have over MC carts is tracking ability - not a huge concern for vast majority of recorded music and some MC carts track very well, but none that I have can match the better MM carts for ultimate tracking ability. I have a AT-15Sa which has a specified tracking force range of 1-1.75 with 1.5g being the recommended setting. I once run it for a while with 0.7g by accident and never noticed until I hit an LP with a very hot trombone that's difficult to track. It tracks it without problem in the recommended setting, with 0.7g it performed about as well as my best MC carts.
EDIT: to add, I answered YES to the poll but it's according to my preferences. If you were to use tracking ability (for example) as the criteria, it would be a resounding NO
You've touched on a bit of a paradox IMHO.
How can a topology that doesn't track as well (MC) sound superior (to the MM).
People often point to the lower inductance but that would only explain differences at frequencies only dogs might care about.
CrSens
Super Member
Because it often boosts treble in general (interpreted as "detail") and people dig it.
There is a lot of truth to that, many MC cartridges have a rising HF response that can't really be tamed via loading to the same degree that MM models respond to loading.
muovimies
Super Member
I don't think the ultimate tracking ability of a cartridge really matters for sound quality as long as you're operating within the limits of the cartridge's comfort zone. None of the MC cartridges I have are bad trackers, they're all actually quite good, but not excellent to the level of very good (high compliance) MM carts.
I think you're simplifying the effect of cartridge inductance and impedance, high inductance MM cartridges seem to be inherently noisier for one thing. It would seem to me MC cartridges are electrically superior, but MM cartridges have more options with their suspension design since they don't have to worry about the cantilever being attached to the coils.
People like to offer this as an answer, but it's a bit condescending really - "oh you're just hearing distortion and think it's good". My favourite MC cartridge doesn't have any kind of treble boost, the measured frequence response is really flat with no peaking, if anything the treble range is a hair recessed (though not significantly). It's also capable of the most detail of all my cartridges, there's something else going on than a "treble boost".
I have no problem with someone preferring the sound of MM cartridges and they do have some advantages, just personally I've always felt MC cartridges perform overall better to my ears and I don't go around telling people they prefer bad sound
CrSens
Super Member
Generally insisting the MC sound is superior can be considered to be equally condescending. And the MM crowd is expected to put up with that with no complaints, because, well, MC carts are just superior, right?I don't think the ultimate tracking ability of a cartridge really matters for sound quality as long as you're operating within the limits of the cartridge's comfort zone. None of the MC cartridges I have are bad trackers, they're all actually quite good, but not excellent to the level of very good (high compliance) MM carts.
I think you're simplifying the effect of cartridge inductance and impedance, high inductance MM cartridges seem to be inherently noisier for one thing. It would seem to me MC cartridges are electrically superior, but MM cartridges have more options with their suspension design since they don't have to worry about the cantilever being attached to the coils.
People like to offer this as an answer, but it's a bit condescending really - "oh you're just hearing distortion and think it's good". My favourite MC cartridge doesn't have any kind of treble boost, the measured frequence response is really flat with no peaking, if anything the treble range is a hair recessed (though not significantly). It's also capable of the most detail of all my cartridges, there's something else going on than a "treble boost".
I have no problem with someone preferring the sound of MM cartridges and they do have some advantages, just personally I've always felt MC cartridges perform overall better to my ears and I don't go around telling people they prefer bad sound
If the rest of your systems is up to it they tend to be.
Edit: hell I am still trying to decide it my 540ml is to bright... I don't do eq or T/C so synergy matters.
Edit II: but I also realize it's the freq response of the cart and nail profile not "boosted treble", it's digging more topend info out of the circular scratch.
Edit: hell I am still trying to decide it my 540ml is to bright... I don't do eq or T/C so synergy matters.
Edit II: but I also realize it's the freq response of the cart and nail profile not "boosted treble", it's digging more topend info out of the circular scratch.
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I'm just trying to figure out what accounts for preference many have for MC.
For the longest time, the lower moving mass was cited. But that seems to conflict with tracking ability tests, with the better MM cartridges outperforming MC cartridges at both low and high frequencies.
The electrical differences are often suggested, and I'm not trying to be dismissive of the advantage to MC here, but like I said, those differences are typically moot below about 15k or thereabouts (beyond which many 35+ YO people cannot hear). The noise aspect you bring up is interesting, but an appropriate phono stage design seems to minimize any advantage and I'd also think any of the difference would be swamped by actual groove noise.
You'd think there would be some simple explanation grounded in science.