TunerLanding
Active Member
Assuming one has an appropriate tonearm and MC preamp capabilities is it true that a moving coil cartridge will generally sound superior to a moving magnet catridge at the same price point?
"No Point" getting higher end MM if you can properly run MC as well
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flavio81
Turntable technician
My take on it, however controversial:
Assuming you have optimized the loading (capacitance, resistance) of the MM cartridge, then at the same price point a MM cartridge ought to be as good as the MC cartridge, perhaps even better.
Reasons for this claim:
(1) Setting aside the cost of the stylus, cantilever, and suspension, MC cartridges are costlier to make than MM cartridges due to the need to wind extremely tiny coils that also will need to endure vibration/movement. The equally-priced MM cartidge probably has a better cantilever (perhaps helping to attain lower moving mass) and a better stylus tip shape (achieving lower distortion at challeging conditions).
(2) Main advantage of MC cartridges is flat frequency response due to being low inductance, low impedance. This is a good advantage; MM cartridges are high impedance, high inductance and this is NOT a good thing if there is going to be a wire to go out of the TT to connect to a preamp. A way to compensate is by tweaking the capacitance and loading. Still, the best solution of this problem is making a low inductance and low impedance cartidge, as MC cartridges are. Grado cartridges are Moving Iron and are low inductance, so there's an alternate solution too.
(3) The often claim that "MC cartridges have lower moving mass" is unsubstantiated and, moreover, some of the cartridges with the lowest moving mass of all times are MM cartridges. It's simple, what contributes the most to the moving mass of a cartridge is the cantilever and the stylus tip. And the manufacturer can always reduce the size of the magnet even further and add more turns of wire to the coil to compensate (or accept a lower output).
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Since we are talking generalities. There is a small area of intersection between the costs of moving coil cartridges and moving magnet or moving iron. Where they intersect you will have different types of presentation, so saying one is better than the other is really not accurate. Finally, the highest levels of moving coi cartridges will not have an equivalent in the moving magnet realm. So this question is really limited in scope, and the answer is not going to be definitive. It can also be argued that the finest of moving magnet cartridges have been produced at the end of the last golden age of vinyl, and the technology used to make them is no longer in use. So the finest of moving magnet cartridges is now extinct.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
I voted yes, however I feel I need to qualify my answer.
Let me start by saying I was a "MC cart snob" years ago, when I was young and could not afford one. Until I, accidentally, got hold of one with an Ortofon step up transformer.
I also don't have any experience with exotic carts, like in the 000s range. And my experience with MC carts is limited to a few models from Ortofon and Denon, i.e. real life examples.
I feel that a good stylus has more influence to the sound than comparing MM and MC.
But, the elliptical and fine line styli on Ortofon carts that I have and listened to is much better for classical, Jazz and acoustic instruments. Meaning, I'd rather listen to a MI cart, like the Stanton 681 for Rock and Pop music.
And a "lowly" Ortofon OM30 is a pretty good performer as well.
One other aspect, really important, is matching the cart to the tonearm and the pre-amp loading. I can understand the mechanics of both these parameters but could not really appreciate the impact until I listened and compared.
Let me start by saying I was a "MC cart snob" years ago, when I was young and could not afford one. Until I, accidentally, got hold of one with an Ortofon step up transformer.
I also don't have any experience with exotic carts, like in the 000s range. And my experience with MC carts is limited to a few models from Ortofon and Denon, i.e. real life examples.
I feel that a good stylus has more influence to the sound than comparing MM and MC.
But, the elliptical and fine line styli on Ortofon carts that I have and listened to is much better for classical, Jazz and acoustic instruments. Meaning, I'd rather listen to a MI cart, like the Stanton 681 for Rock and Pop music.
And a "lowly" Ortofon OM30 is a pretty good performer as well.
One other aspect, really important, is matching the cart to the tonearm and the pre-amp loading. I can understand the mechanics of both these parameters but could not really appreciate the impact until I listened and compared.
benricci
Super Member
Not necessarily, especially if the MM cartridge has a better stylus profile. I can name at least a half dozen MM carts I prefer over, say, the more affordable Denon MC carts in the same price range.
As you go up the chain and get into crazy price territory, I'm sure things change. But for most of us with real-world budgets, you can't really generalize like that.
flavio81
Turntable technician
I agree here.
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
I went all MC following a streak of disappointments with 881S replacement styli. The Stan's imaging is still nearly unbeatable, but I do find MC carts to be better with most parameters. I don't use anything too exotic. It's mainly Denon DL's (like 110/160/103/103R) and Ortofon MC (Rondo) Bronze carts. So... voted yes.
mr_petit
High on Vinyl
But that gives more inductance and will result in filter effects high in the frequency range.
Also, MM (and also MI) are more susceptible to hum. That is why they have a shield connected to the right ground. That too can cause problems.
Electrically, the MC is superior. But you pay a price.
In the past (say 15 years ago) both the Denon DL-160 and AT-440ml had about the same price point. Very similar cartridges except with one you get MC but nude elliptical, and the other MM but nude Microridge. I have both, but I don't have preference for either. The microridge is sometimes a bit strong in the high frequencies, but will have a longer life and sound won't degrade over it's lifespan like most other stylii do.
timmy.timmy
Well-Known Member
Similar experience here. Nothing so regarded as high-end for phono gear (but the Right gear for it to a cost and a lot of trials and DIY'ed fix'N'tweaks) or high-end standard recordings and or pressings (all used "rare" originals soul music 7") but perfect or almost that for my use.
A Denon DL-102 (HO-LC MC cart) is ruling my old 7" records grooves for 12 years now. Yep I got hooked and as a single cart and phono combo for my home use on my beloved 7" I wouldn't get something else as far as presentation and "painless" hours of loud musical sessions is concern.
My DL-102 is not in the 000's but is rather exotic on the other hand. Took me a lot of work to get it to perform from decent (merely good or bad depending on one's expectation) to better and finally optimistically (ultra heavy mass tonearm DITY'ed conversion) but now it's smooth, deep and "alive".
At least enough for me and my humble 7" records. Uncanny it may seem to dedicate $5.000 on a phono combo to get the most out of them 7". In this phono configuration of mine the Denon DL-102 is really 'central' in the scheme. And I can't see myself going to something else like MM or MI for cart.
Yes that's very true but this will also depends on the kind of record's pressings too. And this starts with what stylus would actually grace what groove at best first. Certainly if I were to listen mostly 33rpm 12" microgroove records I would contemplate another stylus cut than a conical like I have now.
My DL-102 begs for an adjustable preamp with the gain set at 60dB (my preference) that should be unexpected for a 3mV output cart. Plus with my tonearm DIY'ed conversion into very heavy effective mass makes the comparison cruelsome to my ears with friends pricier MM's for example.
Yet I totally agree with you that music genres can also truly be better or worse fit for either MM or MC carts accordingly. The vocals and acoustical instruments in soul music are truly advantaged by the MC cart smoother rendition making it them more "present" in the room like or "real" almost.
But for more aggressive and dynamic on high frequencies (electrical amplified instruments like guitars mostly) like punk and the likes any MM cart will definitely be a much better fit if not a necessary one most of the times. On my system some of my friend's punk records just sounds like 'muck'.
IMHO, the MM sensitivity to loading isn't a weakness, it is a plus. I have been able to flatten the response of every model I've tried.
The fact that their usable HF response is limited (compared to MC) doesn't seem to become a problem until well beyond my hearing ability.
But I haven't voted. While I've listened to my share of MC stuff, I run MM exclusively.
The fact that their usable HF response is limited (compared to MC) doesn't seem to become a problem until well beyond my hearing ability.
But I haven't voted. While I've listened to my share of MC stuff, I run MM exclusively.
ripblade
Addicted Member
I voted no. While I accept that MC has advantages these are often offset by electronic considerations upstream where loading is every bit an issue as with MM. Also, I consider the vibrating system to be the most critical to performance and this is equally expensive on either system.
flavio81
Turntable technician
Or my Grado Signature XTZ... low output MI.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
flavio81
Turntable technician
It's refreshing to see you say "No", considering you have devoted so many hours to retip MC carts for the benefit of many people around the world.
I was recommended not to use a Mc coil on my dd table because of the lower output would require higher volume levels which would show more noise from the table , don’t know if it’s true but seems to make sense